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Well I got my car back today and here's the dynograph...
The driving feel is good..smooth power but theres a flat spot just around 2700 to 3000rpm...i dunno why...prolly take it back n get it adjust or checked out...
The tuner moved the vtec switch over point to 4000 instead of the 5800 switch point cos he said the power comes on a lot earlier in a 2L...we'll see how it goes..
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...-42_edited.jpg
You need better intake manifold. Not too bad for the power. But i guarantte you can get more power.
wat i find weird is that its done on 3rd gear rather then 4th gear..i always thought dynos' were done on 4th gear...hmmmmm
ROFL - That's like getting a bronzed "stool"Quote:
Originally Posted by edw-R
So exactly how many cars have you tuned to be able to guarantee this ?
Hmmm...
Zero is the answer you're looking for eh...
Oh god the Trader wars are starting again...
Master bo bo - nice power figure man, should be pretty fun to drive? :)
ha! ^u spelt gurantee wrongQuote:
Originally Posted by edw-R
master_bo_bo got anymore specs or pics?
^ LOL trav so did you...
Guarantee.... :p
People who care this much about spelling on forums need to find better ways to spend their spare time!Quote:
Originally Posted by egSi
^ Just 'cos you have a K, does make you King Dick mate. :p lol
But seriously - I want some more info on this motor - looks good!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waggy
I made my comment not because I have a K motor... !?? But because in many threads I see somebody making a comment on someones ability to spell. Which is ridiculous really. How often does someone sit and write a thread than take the time to do a spell check just to please all the spelling police on this forum?
I don't see how this makes me a 'King Dick' as you called me so respectfully! Maybe other people on this forum consider those who spend so much time policing other peoples spelling mistakes as King Dicks!
lol, but some funni shit. sif try to correct someones spelling to spell it wrong yourself, thats like uber super homo gays shit right der :thumbdwn:
but i'm with justin on this one, who gives a toss about spelling, i know i don't and can't spell that good either.
Colin don't worry about the dyno rubbish, well do some testing as soon as i'm back on the road ;)
Sorry bout the offtopic replies Colin,
Those are good power figures and you have the potential in that engine for much more. You have a sweet ride there
Jeez I was joking take it easy yo'. :thumbdwn:
Yeah - less chat more motor info!
whomever tuned that deserves a bullet.
..and you deserve one for paying for it.
lol sweet. Mercury motorsports gets another happy customer.
Can you elaborate ProECU, on how you can tell from the graph, i wanna learn :thumbsup:
I wonder just how many cars have you seen that can't get more power as well...hmm...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
nice decent output. i assume your running a stock b20 bottom end with a b16a head? how much torque does it have?
Dunno much abt reading graphs but the A/F looks abit whacked? or am i wrong?
Bottom has CP high comp 12.x oversized pistons (85mm) and Eagle Rods, balanced, and blue printed.
Head is stock with ITR cams.
im no expert, but the a/f does look a lil wakQuote:
Originally Posted by ProECU
over 1600 rpm the a/f goes from 11s to almost 13 then back in the 11s.
i wouldnt be happy
Yeh that A/F curve is all over the place, only after 7k rpm does it look decentQuote:
Originally Posted by .::F[L]Y::.
That just makes the output even more dismal.Quote:
Originally Posted by barefootbonzai
ask for a refund.
ahh im running almost same setup as you but stock JDM B16A head im pulling about 131kw atw. could be your spark plugs? Becuase my first tune i only got a dismal 118atw. Found out that my spark plugs wernt the right heat range causing the timing to be way off hence i wasnt able to get any more power up top.
the a/f ratio does seem a bit suss from what i know it should hang around the 13 mark for best power
better intake manifold and throttle body should help with more power I recon
what exhaust you running?
and what ecu?
That is what i said. He is using B16A stock intake manifold, stock throttle body, 2.75 inch cat-back and tuned with Power fc.
I just did a passenger with Colin's car. Very exciting !! :thumbsup:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SKREMN
all well and good to have a killer IM and TB but u need to make sure u can get the gasses back out....does he decent have headers?
Thanks for Jus and D. My spelling is not that good. But i will try to learn and improve.
I spent a lot of money for the tuning with my car. In the tuning process, i can learn more about the tuning theory. Such as air fuel ratio, timing, Vtec point....etc.
Here is a forum. I just want to share my experience to everyone. Any mistake with me? You can tell me what i did wrong. I don't mind because i can learn more.
Every tuner say other tuner is bad. Who can i trust? I trust theory.
well isnt basic tuning theory something along the lines of:
low load low rpm a/f approx 14.6/7
high load any rpm a/f approx 13.2-13.6 (depends on which makes most power) for na applications
turbo needs about in the 12s to avoid detonation.
look i dunno as much as alot of people here but looking at that a/f its truely wak.
should be as close to a flat curve at a single load as possible.
please dont take everything here as correct but u wanna do runs at different a/f at wot and find the one that makes the most power, whilst still in the safe na zone.
At 7000rpm, it has 210Nm of torque at the crankshaft. With only 160Kw@engine, that is pretty lame. Those camshafts should be making more power at higher rpm than that! Obviously needs camshaft timing adjustment, better spark plugs and a thorough AFR retune.
Hey guys..thanks for the comments...yea the car feels a lil weird driving it....1st gear n half way 2nd gear doesnt seems to pull...it only pulls after about 4000rpm on 2nd gear...n as i stated be4..theres a flat spot around 2700 - 3000...i thought the AF ratio doesnt look a lil whack...i thought 14.5 is around the optimal range..ive rang trent from mercury back cos he wants to know my feedback..so ill prolly tell him n see if he can retune it...or ill go APC or CNJ (can i borrow someones pfc commander?) i dun have anymore data...i wanted the torque graph so i know how much torque im puttin out...
Im running 5Zigen 4-2-1 b18 headers with custom 2.75 straight pipe with FGK muffler....
Ill ring mercury back on monday and see if i can get a few things fixed...i guess this is only the first tune..so maybe some more fine tuning is needed...
hey f[L]y..wat spark plugs r u using? Im using NGK Iridium X spark plugs...but be4 i tuned my car..i was running rich...so would the carbon deposit affect the performance?..and Im running powerfc
hey col!! get some passenger front seats!!! :thumbsup:
o yeah!! and a fridge.. and a tv... and a microwave!! lol.. jokez man
Haha..My guess is that your Bevan? ahaha...ill get a front passenger seat but no seat belt...hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Mst_Mugen
im running some HKS plugs. Running really cool plugs..they were like 8-9 heat range. Im using a hondata s100 though.Quote:
Originally Posted by master_bo_bo
Give the guy who tuned it, the 1st opportunity to rectify any issue you have with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by master_bo_bo
Going elsewhere straight away will only cost you money and piss off both parties.
Though you yourself haven’t said anything untoward,
There are plenty of critics who have stepped upto that plate.
Considering you said you had the thing tuned with a hand controller rather than with laptop software. You’re doing ok…
From what you’ve said here, you’ll be fine.
The guy said, bring it back if you have an issue & he’ll sort it out.
I take issue is with the criticism has comes thick & fast from the would-be & arm chair tuners. How this or that should be better.
& I don’t mean those members who are just voicing their opinion, that’s what this forum is all about.
I mean those who would engage the market for profit.
In that respect, no one who has posted here in my opinion is capable of doing any better themselves.
IMO, given the same hand controller & dyno to do the job, you’d be dead in the water. Particularly if time constraints are brought into is & you’re working to a budget (time wise)
Using a laptop is a different story. (an option apparently not available)
Those who are retarded enough to admit they know nothing, yet sell part & offer advice regarding what set-up someone aught to be using are the ones who really need a bullet.
That is where dog shit becomes smarter than a supposed human.
Just to keep things fair, Mercury Motorsports actually has the software. Hence the reason for Colin taking it there in the first place, makes sense that if they had the software they would have some sort of experince with PFC. If he went to any other tunner in brisbane he would need the hand controller since that don't have the software.
but yeah you should print this shit out colin and show them. they can justifly themselves.
Going to other parties to fix a problem someone else created does suck.
But after shelling out a wad of cash and not getting what you're after, then having 3589735 people say "WTF BRO, IT"S SHIT". Kinda makes you some what upset. You no longer trust the people who first tuned your car. Turning to someone else to find solutions.
Car was just tuned, it pulled bad power figures and the A/FR is all over the place, it drives like crap and goes like crap. All the evidence is there but at the end of the day. You're just some joe off the street and the person who tuned your car is master of the bloody universe. So whatever they say, is infallible. It's nice Mercury offered to fix the issues, shame other shops don't. Without charging you again anyway.
GL with the tune.
I still think taking the car back for another go is the best and cheapest solution.
I think a torque output graph would really identify the optimal VTEC switch point, as the hi-cams would be killing torque at such low rpm. The long stroke and >12:1 CR should see some very decent numbers achieved if the ignition timing and AFR mapping is cleaned up. The ITR camshafts should also be dialled in to suit your desired rpm powerbands.
I would be fitting a larger TB as well, the factory item would be restricting air flow at higher rpm. The low rpm hesitation would be caused by the loopy AFR's and the lack of torque(why the HP curve levels off)
What rpm was that 131Kw@wheels made at?Quote:
Originally Posted by .::F[L]Y::.
I was just reading all of this, don't know much about tuning but I like to read this type of posts so maybe I can pick up a thing or two from other people (I think that's why we all come here, to talk and share our experience with our cars), anyway I personaly think that this type of set up chould pull a bit more power, not because I know how to tune cars (I don't at all) but just by comparing it to some other cars with simular/same set ups (check some europian honda sites and forums, this tupe of set up is becoming very popular thing over there).
Anyway vlooks like it's gonna be cool ride, good luck with everything
This cought my attention
So are you saying that you are not in for a profit???Quote:
I take issue is with the criticism has comes thick & fast from the would-be & arm chair tuners. How this or that should be better.
& I don’t mean those members who are just voicing their opinion, that’s what this forum is all about.
I mean those who would engage the market for profit.
was making peak power around 8000-8200Quote:
Originally Posted by iamhappy46
Malenic1981, would you prefer if I was less cryptic?
If you make money from the automotive industry from selling parts;
But you don’t really have any actual tuning experience
Regardless of how much enthusiasm you have…
Without real knowledge & experience, you can only regurgitate the BS you have previously ingested.
If it were otherwise, you’d already be doing something about that lack of experience.
Hence the comment about the “Bronzed Stool”
(This is a bronzed piece of shit if you didn’t get it. Priceless, don’t you think?)
That said, If you’re not in it for any money & just an enthusiast.
Why would you take any offence from what I have said?
It’s not aimed at you & it is for your benefit.
Regarding the tune,
Though it may not be what we would do, the place has offered to rectify the issues he has with it.
That is fair & reasonable so I hope it goes well for him.
I'm not in for money at all, I'm no trader or anything close to trader but I think that you as a trader could be a bit more respectfull to us enthusiast (with or without knowelage). I think that your business depends on car enthusiasts and in some way we depend on you guys (in general, traders, works shops ect).
I have trader rating "0" so I'm not taking any sides or anything but I think there is better way of talking to fellow honda enthusiasts.
Sorry for going completly off topic
Malenic1981 - A better way of talking & not taking sides? WTF?
Say it nicley & it goes over your head, no one gets it.
Say it more bluntly & someone needs a saucer of milk ?
It's not about you - dur!
PM me if you've got more to say it's off topic.
Respectful? Sorry, after all the bullshit theories, I rather have a tuner thats blunt and saves me money in the long run than a quack with a sweet tongue trying to sell me something...Quote:
Originally Posted by Malenic1981
well guys...the car is goin back in for a retune on wednesday at Mercury..I rang them up today and told them of the issues and they were pretty cool about it and wanting to get it fixed asap...so ill see how this retune go...ill post up another dynograph when i do get it..and hopefully a torque graph as well...
How many years and how many cars that guy who tune your car done again???...is it like those Self Claimed thing?..Yea, like Adrian say, give that guy one more go, and if he screwed up, then get to some one who has more experience, at least tuned more than 300 - 400 cars...without much fault...(without much fault means at least the tuners are responsible and know what they are doing or care to explain any chance of fault if it were to tuned at its limit)
one thing, when people say "what setup they should use", can some one clarify the meaning of SETUP to me? it doesn't really make sense to me at all.
e240 at the and of the day they gonna take mine/yours or who evers money, and for my money I do expect a good product or job done to my car but also a bit of respect, if I can respect them they should respect me, it goes both ways.
master_bo_bo good luck with retuning
erm....bo bo, what intake manifold and TB you using?
Well that means you would have had about 207Nm@crankshaft(about 160Nm@wheels) and yes, I realise that your setup was different :) Just needed it for a comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboyz39
Therefore, if master_bo_bo arranges to have the camshaft timing adjusted for peak power at higher rpm(over 8000rpm), with the same amount of hi-rpm torque it will go over the 130Kw@wheels mark easily. It is then a case of adjusting the low rpm fuel and ignition curves for the best driveability.
Todaek9: I believe it is the stock TB and intake manifold. However, that would not be causing the low rpm hesitation. If it was to be a problem, it would be restricting hi-rpm air flow.
but may i know how Hi RPM should a B20 get??..from what i know, it is ard 8500 Peak, Vtec point around 4,800 - 5,200rpm. Anything over 8500rpm peak should have some reliability issue...but i guess it all depends on the owner.
i wonder if stock TB (60mm ??) and intake manifold (P30 ??) too restrictive at high rpm. Would be interesting to know the cost/performance ratio if he does these upgrades.
Better to do more research. No best tuner in forum.
Guys while it is this LEAN you are all taking guess's as to the flat spot and lack of high RPM power just wait till its retuned with the correct AFR's then we will see the difference in power and drivabilty.
Regards Dyno Dave
Hey Guys
Took the car back in for a retune today and here are the dyno sheets....I made 119.2kw but this dyno was done on 4th gear instead of 3rd like the previous dyno...Ive included a torque graph as well...any inputs are much appreciated
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...13-2131-54.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...13-2131-05.jpg
so you made pretty much the same power
is that flat spot gone?
does it feel better? more ressponsive?
The flat spot is still there...but the tuner reckons its caused by the efficiency of the cams and other combination of parts im using in my car...so i dunno..but the car feels somewhat a lil smoother i guess..havent really had a long drive to really notice the difference yet...
are you planning to do more mods like manifold and tb or bigger cams later on?
yeah maybe...later on...im planning on Toda B or Buddyclub Spec 3+ something along those line..i want a cam thats good for mid range power but also decent up top...seeing b20 produce most of their power much earlier...n maybe ITR IM and TB or skunk2..i dunno yet..just work with wat i have atm i guess
thats alot of torque....why don't you take it down the 1/4 to see what MPH it pulls?
wat headers r u using?? i have a flat spot from 2500 to 3000 rpm to but thats is from my 4 1 headers well that is wat i was told from the tuner..
Interesting :(Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmTYPE R
Regards Dyno Dave
Im running 5Zigen 4-2-1 headers...I always thought 4-2-1 are designed for mid range and 4-1 are top end..correct me if im wrong..and yea i have the flat spot around that same area also...and BTW JDMtype R...r u the one selling the red dc2 with the b20 on carsales?
different memeber of the forum i believe. dis guy has eg sedan.
As i said, A/F sometime does not make much diff...if you wanna make more power, reset, and retune...there is definately something wrong with the tuning...But i reckon this car can make more power rather than just 119kw...you should hit ard 125kw...
may be is the way they put your engine togather...hmm...
Quote:
Originally Posted by master_bo_bo
It still does not make sense that they blame the headers or the intake manifold/TB,the low RPM tuning is still to lean for my way of thinking.What injectors and fuel system are you using.Quote:
Originally Posted by master_bo_bo
Regards Dyno Dave
Using H22 injectors, Walbro Fuel pump and Adjustable Fuel Reg. Dave you're welcome to give her a tune if you still plan on comming to brisbane.
Yes I will be there for the Jamboree and will be tuning the following week I am just waiting for confirmation of the dyno costs and booking so I will let you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by barefootbonzai
Regards Dyno Dave
headers 4-1 = flat spot??? thats a first.
Funny shit there Jimmy.Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboyz39
Regards Dyno Dave
Comparing 4-2-1 extractors against 4-1 extractors, is hard. 4-1 tend to make lots more power at a specific rpm, while 4-2-1 make a gradual power increase over a wider rpm range. Depending on the lengths/diameters, either can be used for mid-range or hi-rpm power. That said, most 4-1 are aimed at hi-rpm power, while 4-2-1 are for good driveability.
I agree with Dyno Dave, something is still not right on the low lobe but I suspect it is a mechanical tuning issue rather than ECU/tuner. Sure, the tuner has not managed to get it right but I believe the ITR cams would be far from optimal in this setup.
yea i do believe tat cams most likely plays a major role in this...Maybe the duration of the ITR cam isnt long enough or i dunno...but i MIGHT take it to CNJ reset it n retune it and see what they get there...or ill get some toda B cams or BC race spec 3+ cams n camgear be4 the retune...
that right itis a first coz u drive a swiftQuote:
Originally Posted by fatboyz39
and also drive a b18c7 eg civic ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmTYPE R
welll i know SOMEONE with a similar setup to JDM TYPE R, he's making 130 kw atw, without head work. He also has a flat spot around 3-4k rpm. He's using 4-2-1 headers. Both the same tuners. Don't think it could be the headers ;);)
Can I give you some advice,I cant remember how many times myself or Toda AU have said this but trying to make power is not about throwing a bunch of parts at an engine its about putting together a COMBINATION that will make power just ask todaek9 he knows all about it,and if the setup is wrong no matter how much tuning you do or parts you try you end up with a poor result.Your setup lacks airflow from boltons so look at that first before you go changing cams or other internals,even if this head has had a bad valve job done it will lack power.People are building these Hi Comp engines for some reason without looking at the rest of the setup,cylinder head flow will make more power than Hi Comp on its own.I have built and seen other setups like this one with under 11to1 comp make 140kw using the same cams as you have but use the cylinder head to make power with the correct intake manifold and TB + CAI and porting and valve job,your current headers will support more power than you are making but are not the best set for your 2lt engine hope all this helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by master_bo_bo
Regards Dyno Dave
I agree with Dyno Dave, basically he said everything that is in my mind...But apart from that, the builder must be good as well. Good = had alot of experience in building engines and 100% knows and understand what he is doing.
a good example, Vtec is like a plate of Combination Noodle, it will not taste nice without the right ingredient..hahaha..
^^^agreed. parts are a catalyst for power on each other.
basic example headers on their own with car bone stock could yield say 4wkw, add pod = +4wkw (2wkw of which was coz of the header) if you dyno'd backwards.. ie put the header back to stock and leave the pod and it leaves like a 2wkw gain... not a simple process but generally thats how it works.
The final product is greater than the sum of its parts.....
just thought id add something to make ur statement my own so we are on the exact same thought lolQuote:
Originally Posted by todaek9
i wouldnt have compared a honda to noodles tho lol