Si versus VTi ?

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10-10-2003, 08:51 PM
turkeywing

I'm in the market for a similar car to Charlie.

Would people agree with Forg's comment on Si being more fun to drive than the VTi with VTEC?

I can afford an Si but probably not a Vtec model which seem to pull much more dollars.

thanks
TurkeyWing

Charlie Boon wrote:
...
> I wanna buy a Honda Civic, about $7k to
> $10k is my budget.
>
> What will that amount of money buy me and
> which ones are the "pick of the bunch"?
> I'm after a 4 door sedan, preferably manual
> with airco.
...

OK, that money should buy you the November '91 up to
September '95 model. You might find a newer one, but I
doubt it'd be in very good condition. There's absolutely
nothing wrong with the model prior, they're an exceptionally
good car for their age, but you'd want it to be absolutely
spotless and at the lower end of your price-range.

Equipment levels in 4dr sedan form are;
'91 - '93 GL - 74kW twin-carb SOHC 1.5 engine. Power
windows & mirrors, power steering, central locking, cloth trim.
'91 - '93 Si - 96kW DOHC EFI 1.6 engine. As above, but more
powerful engine, 4-wheel discs, tilt adjust steering.
'93 - '95 GLi - 74kW EFI SOHC 1.5 engine. Same as GL above,
but with EFI engine. Driver's side airbag from August '94.
'93 - '95 VEi - 66kW EFI SOHC VTEC 1.5 engine. As above,
but with VTEC-economy engine; uses less fuel. Driver's side
airbag.
'93 - '95 VTi - 96kW EFI SOHC VTEC 1.6 engine. Same as Si
above, but with VTEC engine & sunroof; less revvy & zingy,
but beefier torque-curve (less need to rev, but a bit less
fun IMHO; more suited to auto transmission than Si engine).
Also got driver's side airbag from August '94.
'95 - Special Edition. Exactly the same as GLi, but they
all had airconditioning as standard (A/C optional on all
other models).

As an indication, my sister sold her 12/91 auto + A/C +
alloys immaculate 160k kms gunmetal Si for exactly $10k,
about 18 months ago. Prices should've dropped a bit since
then, but it was snapped-up very quickly.

In terms of reliability they're all much the same. Si is
probably the most fun, but the VTi's a bit less work to keep
it on-song. Equipment levels are very, very close; the only
real differences are engines.

--
--
Forg! -DUH#6=- (Y1)
10-10-2003, 09:02 PM
wynode

I didn't read all of what "Charlie" had to say, but I'd say the Si has a more linear power curve than the vti. Yes, they make about the same power, but if you are into making modifications, the Si is the way to go.

It is a 'bit' lighter than the vti as it doesn't have airbags + sun roof (something you may/may not want). As to which one is quicker, some say vti, some say Si.

But then again, I might be biased.

I have an Si 4 door and Weq has a Vti 4 door. Maybe we should go for a run up at OPH Weq?

Hope that helps.
10-10-2003, 09:13 PM
turkeywing

Wow, that was a quick response! :)

Thanks wynode, that's the sort of thing I was looking for.

Especially as the Si is a bit more in my budget 8)

The only Hondas I've briefly driven are:

A. 1989 Civic GL (carby 1.5L) manual hatchback
B. 1994 Civic GL (carby 1.6L) manual 4 door sedan.

Car A was definately quicker and drove sportier (steering seemed more direct).

Car B was smoother and refined but seemed a bit underpowered. The braking didnt overimpress either.

How would a '93-'94 Civic Si (injected 1.6L) in 4 door sedan configuration drive compared to the above two cars?

thanks again
TurkeyWing
10-10-2003, 09:25 PM
wynode

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkeywing

How would a '93-'94 Civic Si (injected 1.6L) in 4 door sedan configuration drive compared to the above two cars?

Much better!!!

The engine in the Si is a very good one, and provided you pickup one that has been maintained well, you shouldn't have any major dramas.

Like all Honda engines, its not very torqy, but above 4,500rpm is where it shows its stuff. Its a very revy car and if you keep it above 4,500 it will scream all the way to redline making some big(ish) power!

Its a good engine, and thats why its found in the original CRX and the older Rovers (which had the equivalent ZC).

But like I said, it really shines above 4,500 RPM.

EDIT: PS: If I remember correctly those cars you listed make about 76kW MAX. So driving the Si would be MUCH Better given it makes around 20kW more and also comes with front & rear stabiliser bars standard
11-10-2003, 12:21 AM
Rufes1

A. 1989 Civic GL (carby 1.5L) manual hatchback

My car! If your looking for a quick car the 4th gen is a good building block. Very light, excellent handling and easy to do a transplant.

However most people prefer the new cars. Id be going the Si mate!

Cheers
11-10-2003, 12:29 AM
Weq

Id say whatever comes ur way. i picked up my VTi for 11.5K with 127 on the clock witha full honda service history, 5 speed manual. It was a pretty good deal as the dealer had it for a couple of months with no interest.

I rekon u would be happier with either car, power output u wont be able to pick the difference, the interiors as the same, the only difference is a sunroof!

Whats OHP wynode, i spose we will have to line em up next meet.
11-10-2003, 12:41 AM
turkeywing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weq

I rekon u would be happier with either car, power output u wont be able to pick the difference, the interiors as the same, the only difference is a sunroof!
.

I'd love a sunroof :D

As long as it doesn't leak :?

I've been offered a nice leather sports steering wheel from an '89 Civic GL.

Anybody know if it would fit on a later model ('93-'94) Civic Si or VTi?

cheers
TurkeyWing
11-10-2003, 12:57 AM
Rufes1

I have an electric sunroof in my ED and it wasnt even factory standard and doesnt leak one bit.. I thought it was standard till I saw the sydney sunroof's sticker on it
11-10-2003, 09:23 AM
wynode

OPH = Old Pacific Highway.

Chec the Events section for a few threads on it:

http://www.ozhonda.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=735
11-10-2003, 02:51 PM
A'PEXi

92 sedan for sale $8700ono... its on the octance firesport page
11-10-2003, 10:06 PM
Weq

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkeywing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weq

I rekon u would be happier with either car, power output u wont be able to pick the difference, the interiors as the same, the only difference is a sunroof!
.

I'd love a sunroof :D

As long as it doesn't leak :?

cheers
TurkeyWing

The sunroof is pure sex. Perfect in every honda way.
11-10-2003, 10:31 PM
justin

I'm not a fan of sohc so i'd say the Si (heheh). Don't forget vtec lives in the upmost rev range so yeh...
13-10-2003, 02:31 PM
VTEChnique

I have VTi and drove Si also..

IMO.. the Si has better LOW torque but dies in the ass after 5,500 RPM

where the VTi power doesnt START untill 4,000 RPM but pulls all the way to 7,500 RPM.

in all my races with Si's, they've got me untill VTEC but then I pull on them bad.. and usually win by a length.. so they are very close but the VTEC top-end will get the better of the DOHC.

in terms of weight - the Si is a tiny bit lighter (both HB and 4-Dr) as they dont have the sunroof, however the ZC engine i'd say is heavier than the SOHC VTEC D16Y.

if you plan to do a swap down the track, the VTi would be better in terms of ECU / wiring problems.. but BOTH cars have the rear disc brakes.

besides that, you cant beat the VTEC 'BARK' !!
13-10-2003, 03:26 PM
Civic Type R

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTEChnique

you cant beat the VTEC 'BARK' !!

hehe "Is that a Type R motor you running under there sir?"

that was funny at Barbargallo Raceway LOL
13-10-2003, 03:57 PM
Bumble B

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weq

The sunroof is pure sex. Perfect in every honda way.

Cheers to that! :)

I think the VTi is fine for a SOHC motor!
13-10-2003, 04:11 PM
wynode

Quote:

IMO.. the Si has better LOW torque but dies in the ass after 5,500 RPM

It does? If I had my dyno plot with me i'd post it, but it actually keeps making power all the way till 6,800rpm and then holds that power untill the fuel cutout (same as the vti).

Both cars make the same amount of power stock. Just because it is VTEC it doesn't mean it makes more power after the VTEC engagement. BTW: the vti is SOHC VTEC with activation only on the intake side. Its not meant to be a performance monster.

As for weight of the engines, they are both all alloy including the head and the block. The si may be a 'bit' heavier because it has one extra camshaft, but that's trivial really. It's the overall weight of the cars that matter.

Quote:

if you plan to do a swap down the track, the VTi would be better in terms of ECU / wiring problems.. but BOTH cars have the rear disc brakes.

If you are doing swap, you would need new wiring harnesses, new engine and all the other goodies, so why is the vti any better?

-W

PS: AUDM Civic Si carries the D16A8. The ZC was only found in the Rovers here in Aus (just clearing it up thats all) :)
13-10-2003, 04:26 PM
bennjamin

Id just like to add something else if u will let me...

*jumps onto soapbox*

Vti's are ok.

But thats why the yanks turbo these...coz theres' no way in hell of gettin any more power outta a SOHC engine LOL J/K !!!

*falls off soap box , then runs away from Bumble Bee ! *

Vti's are ok - but i love my Si. *sniff*
13-10-2003, 07:57 PM
EG5

IMO.. the Si has better LOW torque but dies in the ass after 5,500 RPM

* I can rev my EG civic SI till 8000 rpm *
i bet no one belive me ;) but thats the fact.
13-10-2003, 08:15 PM
Weq

Quote:

Originally Posted by bennjamin

Id just like to add something else if u will let me...

*jumps onto soapbox*

Vti's are ok.

But thats why the yanks turbo these...coz theres' no way in hell of gettin any more power outta a SOHC engine LOL J/K !!!

*falls off soap box , then runs away from Bumble Bee ! *

Vti's are ok - but i love my Si. *sniff*

I totally agree. In terms of performance, honda has extracted about 90% of what a N/A d16y1 will produce in stock form.. Turbo is the only worthwhile mod i would consider for this engine.
13-10-2003, 11:51 PM
bennjamin

Quote:

Originally Posted by EG5

IMO.. the Si has better LOW torque but dies in the ass after 5,500 RPM

* I can rev my EG civic SI till 8000 rpm *
i bet no one belive me ;) but thats the fact.

I believe u Yonas....only becoz i KNOW ....pfft.....eat me in end of third will u ? BAH !!!

LOL :P

Anyway ! Si is better standalone car !
Get a VTi if u want " vee - teech " . and thats all.
14-10-2003, 12:05 AM
Setanta

Quote:

Originally Posted by EG5

IMO.. the Si has better LOW torque but dies in the ass after 5,500 RPM

* I can rev my EG civic SI till 8000 rpm *
i bet no one belive me ;) but thats the fact.

I'd believe you, simple because I got owned on another forum by a guy claiming that his Euro Civic (ZC powered) would do 200km/h+ in FOURTH gear. He posted footage of it doing it @ 8000RPM+ with the rev limiter removed and a re-chipped ECU. Similar spec DOHC to the Si so yeah, you have a believer here.
14-10-2003, 02:21 PM
VTEChnique

hahh you east-coast Si guys are the same as west-coast Si guys thinking cause they got DOHC they got the best engine in the world.

on paper they have the same power -VTi actually has more torque..

you can rev it to 8,000RPM ? well done !! I can rev mine to 8,200RPM.

FROM MY EXPERIENCE I have beaten every ZC engine I have raced except for ONE supercharged version. They pull on me untill I hit VTEC then I say bye bye... so you can say what you want.. if you can read you will soee that I said FROM MY EXPERIENCE.

yes the D16Y8 only has VTEC on the intake cam, that dont mean it's not a performer. the Malaysian D15Y SOHC VTEC is their top of the line performance engine.

the ZX is nothing special - it's just DOHC head on D-series block pffttt.

I'm not saying the D16Y is the best honda engine - i'll be the first to tell you that the B16A is better.. but not that much better.

FROM MY EXPERIENCE ALSO - I have beaten every LS integra I've raced also.. B18B... explain that ZC morons !!

FLAME AWAY BOYS AND GIRLS !!
14-10-2003, 03:24 PM
Bumble B

Quote:

Originally Posted by bennjamin

Id just like to add something else if u will let me...

*jumps onto soapbox*

Vti's are ok.

But thats why the yanks turbo these...coz theres' no way in hell of gettin any more power outta a SOHC engine LOL J/K !!!

*falls off soap box , then runs away from Bumble Bee ! *

Vti's are ok - but i love my Si. *sniff*

Would never sting a fellow Civic owner :P

Weq: Aren't most Honda engines highly tuned in stock form? Even the Si engine?
14-10-2003, 06:05 PM
bennjamin

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTEChnique

hahh you east-coast Si guys are the same as west-coast Si guys thinking cause they got DOHC they got the best engine in the world.

on paper they have the same power -VTi actually has more torque..

you can rev it to 8,000RPM ? well done !! I can rev mine to 8,200RPM.

FROM MY EXPERIENCE I have beaten every ZC engine I have raced except for ONE supercharged version. They pull on me untill I hit VTEC then I say bye bye... so you can say what you want.. if you can read you will soee that I said FROM MY EXPERIENCE.

yes the D16Y8 only has VTEC on the intake cam, that dont mean it's not a performer. the Malaysian D15Y SOHC VTEC is their top of the line performance engine.

the ZX is nothing special - it's just DOHC head on D-series block pffttt.

I'm not saying the D16Y is the best honda engine - i'll be the first to tell you that the B16A is better.. but not that much better.

FROM MY EXPERIENCE ALSO - I have beaten every LS integra I've raced also.. B18B... explain that ZC morons !!

FLAME AWAY BOYS AND GIRLS !!

Chill chill chill...then again , FROM MY EXPERIENCE i have beaten every single VTi that i have taken on...and a vtir or two too...

But that DOESNT mean my car is better or more powerful. OR does it mean that i can automatically beat every single VTI or VTiR or whatever in the world. It comes down to driver.

I once ATE a 32 gtr around a corner.......

only becoz he was turning into maccas !!!

"WEST SIDE, EAST SIDE....who gives a feck ! lets not start like Americans crap on about everyday !

HONDAS R COOL !

Dammit.

I just luv Eg's .

8)
14-10-2003, 06:35 PM
EG5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Setanta

Quote:

Originally Posted by EG5

IMO.. the Si has better LOW torque but dies in the ass after 5,500 RPM

* I can rev my EG civic SI till 8000 rpm *
i bet no one belive me ;) but thats the fact.

I'd believe you, simple because I got owned on another forum by a guy claiming that his Euro Civic (ZC powered) would do 200km/h+ in FOURTH gear. He posted footage of it doing it @ 8000RPM+ with the rev limiter removed and a re-chipped ECU. Similar spec DOHC to the Si so yeah, you have a believer here.

thanks dude , i got my EG civic from Dean ( ART melbourne) , the ecu is rechipped and i got unichip as well. So thats why i can do 8000rpm on a ZC.
15-10-2003, 08:39 PM
Setanta

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTEChnique

hahh you east-coast Si guys are the same as west-coast Si guys thinking cause they got DOHC they got the best engine in the world.

Methinks there is a case of location envy here :P

Settle petal, no-one has been making fun of you...yet ;)
16-10-2003, 12:24 AM
Weq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumble B

Quote:

Originally Posted by bennjamin

Id just like to add something else if u will let me...

*jumps onto soapbox*

Vti's are ok.

But thats why the yanks turbo these...coz theres' no way in hell of gettin any more power outta a SOHC engine LOL J/K !!!

*falls off soap box , then runs away from Bumble Bee ! *

Vti's are ok - but i love my Si. *sniff*

Would never sting a fellow Civic owner :P

Weq: Aren't most Honda engines highly tuned in stock form? Even the Si engine?

True, but the DOHC head has the advanatge of 2 cams so i assume more flow potential. But personally i wouldnt bother with 'performace' motor mods on an N/A car, no bang for buck imo.
16-10-2003, 12:49 PM
bennjamin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weq

True, but the DOHC head has the advanatge of 2 cams so i assume more flow potential. But personally i wouldnt bother with 'performace' motor mods on an N/A car, no bang for buck imo.

Amen to that....no matter how fooley sick we think our dinky lil buzzboxes are...we still cant achieve much without performance cams...timing...fuel mapping ETC.

Even the king ITR engines cant produce decent numbers above norm without serious money thrown around.

An exhaust and air filter is all we can really do :)
15-11-2003, 09:18 AM
justin

Not all vtec engines are tuned for performance (or highly tuned in that regards). I haven't driven a vti but as an ex Si owner i would say Si due to dohc. The potentials are there. It's basically a CRX with a civic body.
16-11-2003, 02:38 AM
Caster®

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTEChnique

yes the D16Y8 only has VTEC on the intake cam, that dont mean it's not a performer. the Malaysian D15Y SOHC VTEC is their top of the line performance engine.

I dont see the relevance in the D15Y being the top model in Msia? The Si was the top model here before the VTi... so what?
16-11-2003, 09:16 PM
DooshDoosh

Just wondering fellas.. Did any other EG civic come out with a sunroof other than the VTI?
16-11-2003, 10:00 PM
wynode

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooshDoosh

Just wondering fellas.. Did any other EG civic come out with a sunroof other than the VTI?

Not standard no.
04-01-2004, 07:46 PM
EG5

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTEChnique

hahh you east-coast Si guys are the same as west-coast Si guys thinking cause they got DOHC they got the best engine in the world.

on paper they have the same power -VTi actually has more torque..

you can rev it to 8,000RPM ? well done !! I can rev mine to 8,200RPM.

FROM MY EXPERIENCE I have beaten every ZC engine I have raced except for ONE supercharged version. They pull on me untill I hit VTEC then I say bye bye... so you can say what you want.. if you can read you will soee that I said FROM MY EXPERIENCE.

yes the D16Y8 only has VTEC on the intake cam, that dont mean it's not a performer. the Malaysian D15Y SOHC VTEC is their top of the line performance engine.

the ZX is nothing special - it's just DOHC head on D-series block pffttt.

I'm not saying the D16Y is the best honda engine - i'll be the first to tell you that the B16A is better.. but not that much better.

FROM MY EXPERIENCE ALSO - I have beaten every LS integra I've raced also.. B18B... explain that ZC morons !!

FLAME AWAY BOYS AND GIRLS !!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
u have beaten every LS integra u raced and every Zc engine powered car .... hmm not bad at all ;)

for those who know my EG civic si ,
my Si 1.6 twin cam can chop a moded h22a type S conversion in 1988 lude , also ek4 civic vtir , JDM ef8 CRX SIR(b16a ) some moded Dc2 type R , 4agze supercharged corrola etc

Im not saying si or vti is better , but once its moded .... they both can be a beast .

also the way u drive ur car , counts too ;)

no offence here dude... :idea:
04-01-2004, 08:42 PM
Mitch M

Quote:

Originally Posted by wynode

Please do a search, this has been discussed before. If you have any questions reply to that thread please.

Here's the thread:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forums/viewto...ghlight=si+vti

hmmm

i won't say that, coz i would probably be banned ....
05-01-2004, 01:56 AM
civiceg9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caster®

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTEChnique

yes the D16Y8 only has VTEC on the intake cam, that dont mean it's not a performer. the Malaysian D15Y SOHC VTEC is their top of the line performance engine.

I dont see the relevance in the D15Y being the top model in Msia? The Si was the top model here before the VTi... so what?

Doesn't Malaysia Civics have drum brake at the rear even on Vti models
heard they are not made in Japan either :x
05-01-2004, 07:06 AM
Weq

American civics of the EG era had rear drums also.
they are sitll made in japan i think.