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Hi guys,:wave:
Just got some pics of my blown up B16a. It was a result of high revs stock valve springs. Just a bit of a warning for those thinking about raising their rev limit!!! without upgrading valve springs.
Mods on motor were
Toda A Cams
Itr intake manifold
jdm headers
reinhard takumi cat back
hondata s200
Not pretty guys:(
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Cheers guys
EGJOE
Hi guys
hope this thread will stop this from happening to you or anyone else. Though i was reving the crap out of it LOL. Oh well build bigger and better!!!
Live and learn, live without regrets
EGJOE:thumbsup:
Sorry to hear.
What rpm was rev limiter at?
yeah how hard were u revving it?
Gday buddy
The rev limiter was around 8500-8600rpm on stock b16a valve springs. Original owner/builder of motor told us it was built with itr valve springs, I guess he lied.:thumbdwn:
EGJOE
hey buddy how much power were u making with that setup...
did you ever get it dynoed?
and was that car already tuned with s200 or did u do it afterwards..
but i must ive never seen a motor "shatter" just over bad valave springs..
hey didnt you have another thread on whether a built b16a or b18c7?
so u decided to go built b16a and blew it up lol?
Dude i saw this happen......
And no offence but i wasnt surprised it happened.
You where driving a red EG Correct?
i saw wat happened on the night.. even if they were itr valve springs, i doubt they'd handle the reving u gave.. maybe a set of bike valve springs can handle ur reving...
8500 8600???
Ive accidently over reved my past that rpm a few times.
try 8900 stock internal B18c (sir-g) my motor still as strong as the day i 1st drove it...
maybe the tune was not good or ur oil pump was goin, or you held it at those revs for a while???
I've done 8,800-9,000rpm on a B18c2 many times by accident.
Seen a JDM B16a go off the ****en dials.
All still going strong today.
But all only momentarily and not sustained RPM.
what type of spring retainers where in there, the springs may not have been at fault.
Sorry to here about yoru engine
Sorry to be a noob...
dont weak valve sprigns just give float? how does float equate to shatter piston?
what's float?Quote:
Originally Posted by BlitZ
noob here.
looks like a rod or rod bolt let go from those pics....
Stock springs wouldn't fail at 8500
Hard to see from the pics but did Cyl 1 and 4 crack the walls and lose the piston? or just the one and you just took two photos of it? Because you only lost one valve
seems like the springs causeing a timing imbalance at high revs...
being so hot with the valve hitting the piston, looks to me like thre was only
trouble in cyl 1
Shit...that's horrible mate. Crank's been chewed out as well as the rest of the block...8500-8600 is completely normal for that type of engine. There's no reason for the engine to let go unless the tune was bad, bad build or you held those revs...that and a combination of not servicing it by the looks of those pics :(
Bad luck man, hope you get a new setup soon :thumbsup:
who tuned it? just wondering.
that much revving should not kill the engine. It just wears the engine faster and leads to blow-by.
I agree with Clay that its more likely oil sludge problems as the oil prob was getting into lube engine at high rpm.
Other thing i think it might be is tune. But then it might be a conbination of both the above.
form the pic,cylinder 1 or 4 (i dont know,never seen a b16 this naked) has dropped a valve.
your options are:
1. spring has caused float and the valve has contacted the piston,smashed the valve and the debris in the cylinder has smashed your engine to bits.solution,upgraded springs
2: Because you were using stock retainers,at high rpm these 10gram or so retainers have to change direction thousands of times a minute and they're relative mass gets into the hundreds of kg's. The retainer could of simply had enough,left enough gap for the collets to escape,your valve got thrown into the piston....smash.solution,titanium or stainless retainers,lighter and stronger
3. At high rpm the valve is opening and closing alot,your stock valve may have had enough of the pounding against the port at high rpms and literally snapped the head off it,throwing your valve into the piston.....smash. souliton,titanium or stainless valves
im only an apprentice mechanic so im just trying to think through it logically,im interested to hear what others think.
like everyone has said,b16 can rev that high easy,stock springs and all,issues arise if you play around and hold those high rpm for excessive time.
goodluck with whatever your next engine is joe,maybe its time for a shift light lol
Ha,ha:p
Yeh i was reving the shit out of it but i rev the crap out of all my cars, never had a problem. The hondata rev limit was set at 8500 -8600rpm. Type r valve springs would handle that easy.All that slime is the coolant mixed in with the oil LOL.
I have the remains of the valves one is snaped result from the collars coming off, the valve then fell into the bore smashing piston into bits. the conrods and pins all fine, whole bottom end rotating fine as well as bearings all good. Quite possible valve float and piston hit it, cause the retainer was cracked in the process.
EGJOE
hi guys
Yeh there was only damage to one bore. Thanks for all the theories but im quite sure it was cause of valve springs. Remember I had toda A cams with more lift and duration then stock b16a camsnot dialed in as well. Most likely valve boucing/float caused by springs not up to it.
End of the day you can only come up with what happen from the evidence, only god knows what actually happen. All i know for a fact is that i was reving it hard. I know alot of you say Im stupid for doing so but all my past cars were fine.
EGJOE
i sold u dud motor lol
LOL,
Dud still was quick as a dc2 LOL!!!!:p Wonder how fas a good motor gonna be LOL :)
EGJOE
Just to clear things up a bit
This motor was fully overhauled and built by a very reputable mob and was also tuned by a very reputable tuner that all of us know! So you cant believe everything you hear and get told by people about other people.
And the blown motor had been sitting in my shed for over a week, so the coolant and oil mixed hence that horrible sludge dudes!! Not bad servicing.
Im sure this motor has met its death because of problems in the head and of course me the driver reving it too hard.
EGJOE
interesting read
bad luck man, with all that reputable work and tune done to not be able to rev at 8500-8600? lol. oh well head up , new motor
question is was it even safe to have your stock rev limit moved to 8500-600 ?
was it even making power after 8k ?
even if it had a standalone, it only had cams changed from ur first post. and toda A cams are a tad more aggressive than CTR ones. str8 bolt on with stock valvetrain usually.
it seems motors tend to fail alot more when "rebuilt" ~ no offence to any builder here or in the entire world , but from factor is as strong as you can get something,.
x2:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
or just build it yourself:p
no one to blame but yourself:D
Centrax FTW! My mates B20 from them had the same fate in the end.
I 2nd that....hahaha ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by 90LAN
This is very true. Often, if not in all cases when shops over here build motors they dont do even half the checks they are supposed too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
Generic engine recondition, generic bearings, generic clearences and the list goes on. Toda, Dave, Online and everyone i have ever met who has told me they are the sh8t does it the same way. Check one bearing with plastigauge and eye off the rest. "yeh it will do, sips from beer".
Only motors ive ever seen that were strong as nuts were imported from the US. Those guys have the same kind capacity and builder integrity that you see with OEM build.
Rofl @ "professionals mentality"
*Hannys smokes ciggie while changing fuel filter*
but all in all its going to be awhile yet until we get decent anal rebuilders here in Oz.
ive tested stock b16a revability... the one we did blew up went at ~ 9500 -1000 rpm before it threw valves into pistons...
just goes to show that valve springs are fully designed to specific cams...
Yes
Finally people who understand what im on about!!!:thumbsup:
EGJOE
lol BenQuote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
hear that heheh
Let's see how long my new build lasts!!!!
so your saying no one can build Honda motors in AUS?
Who are you asking Jimmy?Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboyz39
You didn't quote anyone..
i think he refers to my post. Its official that the builders in oz ( for honda motors) do not have the experience and knowledge that some US or JDM builders have. Not that we cant be that good , it takes more and more effort + experience. Just that i personally would not trust anyone in this country to "rebuild" any engine i owned.
I disagree with u ben, theres alot of good builders in aus. You'll find that many of the problems stem from the reluctance of customers wanting to pay for quality parts and reusing 2nd hand parts
That said, all the motors i have ever built for street cars have never had a problem that was caused by a build error, my customers understand that building a good engine requires certain things, and if they dont, i simply dont take on the job.
^^ i agree. sometimes its the customers wallet that is the weakest link.
But then again, Bens comment is sorta valid, there are some dodgy people out there who just build engines that under perform compared to oem
2 thingsQuote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
1. any engine?? u mean u wouldnt trust an oz engine workshop to rebuild an oz engine either?
2. so u know and have experience with every workshop in the country?lol
i think ur being a little unfair...watever bad experiences u and others may have had with local workshops, im sure ther are lots of other happy and satisfied customers that have had their work done at other workshops
I agree with BennQuote:
Originally Posted by krogoth
imo, i would learn how to do it and do it myself
lol
ahh
so uve tried every engine builder in the country as well have u? lol
learn how to do it?
lol
ull need a couple of degrees and a few decades of workshop experience and 3million dowlar worth of equipment
no i haven't tried every builder in the country, i'm just a very biased person, you know that....Quote:
Originally Posted by krogoth
I have my beliefs and i'll stick to them thanks
also, my requirements don't entail such a highly strung engine, so i think i'll be capable
and if my handy work blows up, i got no one to blame but myself :)
guys this is venturing off topic ~ my point is that other countries have more workshops and more experience than here in Oz. Problem is i have "heard" much more bad experiences than good ones stemming from local builders. This includes performance workshops and normal honda mechanics alike.
I would not let anyone in Australia rebuild my engine. Thats just my opinion so dont take it hot to heart. There are many good mechanics around Oz but unfortunately the minority ruin it for the rest of us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by krogoth
man you are being kinda silly. of course he hasnt tried every builder in the country. its like me saying 'man that was the best pizza ever'. i havent eaten every pizza ever. and just like i have done with the pizza, the people here have taken there experience with a variety of local builders and extrapolated.
the simple fact is there isnt the same market in australia as there is in america or japan. smaller market means less competition, means less incentive to improve quality and/or drop prices. our market is not as competitive or as developed, so not only do firms not have the incentive, they often dont have the experience. there are places in america that would churn out 5X the output of the builders here, simply because thats the volume thats demanded in other countries.
i agree with ben, and i disagree with you
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr_will
good boy
you show him darling :p
well i am "a glorious beacon of light" after all :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Bludger
lol, ok well done for disagreeing with meQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr_will
yes of course there isnt as much competition or industry here as other countries, which means ther wont be as much experienced builders here as ther will be in other places
all im saying, is that there is no way that the only way to get ur engine built to a high enough standard, is to go to the US or japan
it can be done here, its more difficult yes, but i refuse to believe that ther is NO ONE in the country qaulified or capable of doing it
sure i didnt put it in the best possible way, i just re-phrased ben's post, if he can generalise, then i can make a sarcastic reply
bau, do u seriously think u can learn and actually build an engine better than all others in australia?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bludger
its that kind of attitude that i dont get, y do u guys have such little confidence in the local workshops?
of course u have to be extremly suspicous and careful, but that doesnt mean u dismiss the whole local industry as useless and inferior
im sure ther are heaps of ppl that are very satisfied with local work, honda engines, nissans, holdens, fords, etc
all we hear about is the ones that go wrong.....just try to be more open, thats all
fair enough benQuote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
again as i stated above, i completley agree, the industry here is tiny compared to the US and japan, so logicilly that means ther will be less skilled builders
lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by krogoth
I didn't say that
I said, I don't trust anyone to build an engine for me.
I said i only trust myself
and if my engine breaks, i only have myself to blame
don't put words in my mouth
lol
looks like you'll be spending big bucks when you decide to rebuild you own motor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bludger
we'll just have to wait and see aye?Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboyz39
lol
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/h...dDirection.jpg
i agree our engine builders are behind in technology and in 3/4 of cases ability too.alot of engine building comes down to who taught you how to do it,the only way to get better is someone to learn something and teach it to someone else.japan has been building honda engines forever,we are still quite young at it.for example a japanese builder may know of 4 tests to perform on a bearing while installing,while through no fault of their own an australian builder may only have 2 tests for a bearing in his knowledge,thats just how it is.
we do have some exellent builders though,you really need to be quite anal about it to do a good job.
do not discount the fact that alot of the time parts let the build down and not the builder
Not too different to giving someone else your money so they can do some guess work on your motor.Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboyz39
I've seen people pour tons of money into their motor only to get poor results.
I can't help but feel this happens more OFTEN THAN NOT.
No stranger to this myself =\
So please excuse some of us if we generalise Aus engine builders.
Not trying to insult any builders out there but because the demand for built engines is low, so is the supply for quality parts, skills and experience. (Compared to Japan&USA).
Honda build awesome motors, so I'd imagine it wouldn't be hard to go backwards from OEM.
I think it boils down to cost vs gain. Too much cost too little gain.
Also some builders think they know everything and are reluctant to consider new ideas, methods or parts/brands.
Example: A major tuning shop in Japan does certain things to a head which increase the motors' ability to EFFIECENTLY produce power. They've built hundreds of motors using this method and have proven to make 450ps+.
But some insist it's merely a gimmick, among many other things available in the performance field today.
Unless they've specifically built that motor many times and have had consistant results, then I wouldn't question their parts list/build method.
But such a thing is a rarity in Australia (my opinion, please prove me wrong).
On the other hand, tuning shops in Japan build 10's, 100's if not 1000 of the same motor. Simply because there is a demand for them. Not just locally but internationally.
But who are we as customers to argue....it's not like we know anything about building motors.
If we did, we'd be doing it ourselfs, right?
awesome thread. diy for the win...
Quote:
Originally Posted by EGJOE
Quote:
Originally Posted by EGJOE
It's funny how this has turned into some sort of shit slinging match aimed at local engine builders if not the whole industry...
(With no offence intended, LOL… Yeah right.)
To his credit, ECU-Man was the only one who picked up on the real cause of this engine failure... Prior to it being actually stated…
The devil is in the detail.
In any case, I agree, it's a shame that Joe's motor blew...
Though He seems to be ok with it & doesn’t appear to suicidal or anything…
What's a bigger shame is how some of you have extrapolated this into how the local industry is inept & without ability, insight or experience.
Back to the usual; Blame the tuner or builder.
No one ever wants to face the reality of the loose nut between the steering wheel & the seat...
But the tone of this thread is bordering on ridiculous…
The owner not only admits fault of over rev, but indicates the component failure (root cause) that initiated the catastrophic engine failure.
Joe's original post was just informative…
Look what I did… This is why… Oops… Maybe someone else can learn from my mistakes too…
Fair comment really…
well said adrian :thumbsup:
Guys
I posted this thread up to let others be aware of what can happen if the right components aren't used and not to believe everything you hear. Do your research and make sure you get what your paying for. I can clearly see I've acheived this.
How about we all just agree to disagree:thumbsup:
Cheers
EGJOE
fair enough, youre entitled to your opinion - if youre agreeing with ben then i agree with you, haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by krogoth
i think what bludger was getting at had more to do with patience and time - if you build an engine yourself you might be more willing to go at a slower pace, and take a very long time to build it, compared to a professional builder who needs to turn over stock to make ends meet.
of course there will be times when the pro's experience will mean he makes a better product, but equally there might be times where your patience means something doesnt get overlooked, or a few more clearances are checked, or whatever