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Hey guys,
I mate just showed me this site http://www.capa.com.au/main.htm and i was wondering if anyone had used their products or know of anyone that has.
If you would spend, say, $10000 on a k20/24 engine swap why not spend $7,500 on a kit that produces an extra 117HP on a b16 and 64ft/lb of torque.
Here is the link to the honda kits http://www.capa.com.au/kits_vortech_honda.htm
Just would like to see your thoughts on these kits, a bit of discussion :)
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Does that include the ECU?
Dosnt say anything about ecu in the pricing.
So you're looking at closer to $9000-10000 inclusive of ECU and tuning, and then more to install.
Im not looking at buying it i just would like to discuss it with everyone.
Whats the avg price for all parts for a k20/24 engine installed and what do they produce?
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Gio,
U can get a Capa (rebaged votech) kit from the states for around $3000 (2nd hand, complete with management, no resale value). The same price as a basic turbo setup. The problem with supercharger kits on small capacity motors (with no torque) is that the paracitic loss very hard to justify. Also, unlike turbos, they are very hard to upgrade for more power. S/C is more suited to a engine with a board toruqe output.
Ive driven a centrifulgal S/Ced car (capa kit) and its very linear. Very nice. Feels like a strong NA motor. I think it would satisfy alot of "NA is god" nuthuggers.
Gio. Dont start the age old debate or power VS money :) Its widely accepted that you cannot get more value for money then forced induction (Turbo/SC) but you have a league or people who prefer NA. You wont sway them, no matter output.
Lol yeah i dont want to start no war, i just wanted to discuss this kit. Whats votech?
i think he means vortech
its another supercharger company
would a supercharger suit a d series?
i heard the disadvantage of a supercharger would be youd need a good starting torque to spool the extra weight of the SC, and considering hondas have less torque then it wouldnt be viable?
Jackson Racing FTW! :p
there is no kit for the d series, there is for the b series.
Hold up brother. Someone needs to stop posting and start learning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio
He was referring to the Capa Vortech kits. They don't list kits for the D series. I'm sure some other company does a D series kit since there are very fast turbo D series on the 1/4 mile in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by Weq
Yeah sorry didnt explain myself, thanks aaronng
Jackson Racing is an older company that used the Eaton series, model M62 (on itr anyway). They had an inefficient design which resulted in very hot IAT at boosts above around 9psi, and thus high power ouptut was limited potential and required a heat exchanger setup. Eaton have just released the TVS series of chargers which have a roots style setup, but is referred to as a Twin Screw setup due to the evolvement in design. This is much more efficient, however still not as efficient as a centrifugal system (Rotrex, Vortech etc). The fact that a centrifugal needs revs to boost (still no lag, just a more linear power delivery) means that the Eaton series chargers will be more responsive at low rpm as full boost is achieved a basically idle -- The centrifugal setups will have close to full boost by 3500rpm and have the capacity to build up to 25 psi efficiently with an intercooler setup.
I am assessing my options currently and looking to go with rotrex -- Expensive excercise, expect around $10-$12k + ECU.
the problem is with roots superchargers is that not many spint he same way our engines do. There are only limited off the shelf blowers, and they arnt efficent on our motors at high-RPM. There is a good supercharger thread on h-t where a guy is experiementing with a custom 500hp root blower on a b-series motor.
Most chargers can be made to spin CCW FYI .. Small modifications required.
I am looking at a rotrex which is the latest and greatest centrifugal type. Quite efficient relly up to 25psi if required.
vortech > JRSC
Small mods = false. Your looking at a custom made housing for a start, and the housing must be cnc'd and designed for good flow charctoristics.Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
Rortex isnt a new type, its a brand. They may use better bearings, be a little quieter the cut-price procharger, vortech, but dont expect magic.
Look into Kraftwerks (aka JRSC) new S/c kits. VERY good power outputs in S2K platforms out of the box bolt on.
Also Comptech is another one to look into.
I meant the rotrex is the most technologically advanced of the centrifugal type to my knowledge.. I think the new JRSC are rotrex based anyway.
Might have found a cheapish JRSC setup with LHT cooler from the states ..
Rotrex are the new JRSC / Kraftwerks kits - Correct.
Be wary, when I did my conversion with the Comptech Sc kit, there are a number of changes due to the LHD to RHD conversion ; more than you may think.
In my opinion, there isn't an "off the shelf" supercharger kit for the b-series that's worth it.
As said above, the old roots type JRSC kits are highly inefficient and produce high IAT's which need the aid of either an LHT intercooler or water injection to run desirably. Increasing boost on them yeilds diminishing returns to power, with excessively high heat being the by-product (especially at high RPM's). Saying that, they do make a good basic power adder if boost is kept under 9-10psi, but their potential is limited on our engines.
Becuase of the above, a mate of mine in the UK tried a Vortech S/C kit on his b18c. As i've said in another thread somewhere, it produced nothing but headaches for him. When it did run without any issues, it produced a nice linear power boost. But the mechanism was a pain to install, it snapped three belts in three months, and the final result wasn't particularly spectacular. There was a noticably decrease in torque and power up to 3500-4000 rpm, which is not desirably on a daily driver. Essentially, this application wasn't right for his needs.
I reckon ewendc2r is on the right track. The rotrex system is small, compact and efficient and able to be intercooled - it's a step above in terms of technology against previous designs. But it requires a lot of custom work to fit. Saying that, there is a video of an ITR on youtube with a rotrex system (search "integra rotrex") - looks like a fun setup.
Here it is:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=N-6fWeKT3h0
Awesome Vid.
I will let you know how it goes -- Essentially I will be relocating the Oil Pump, and getting rid of AC more than likely (because it doesn't work at the moment due to a **** up I made and I just deal with it, we have windows!). Putting the Rotrex where the Oil Pump is, short piped intercooler setup and 10psi should be good for around 280whp with max boost around 3500rpm -- This is fine as the B series is a high revving motor and if you want that power how often do you put the foot down in that gear or really, do you down shift? My biggest advantage other than added straight line speed, is the ability to short shift for more corners wihout worrying about dropping out of the power range.
Also looking at 16"x7.5" wheels ... you get the idea
^ agreed.
even though im a NA man at heart - i would much prefer a sc setup on a FWD honda to a turbo. I drove my brothers Gt3040 b18 integ and how gay is torque steer? worst part is that he couldnt thrash it around corners as all cornering ability goes out the windows once you hit boost...even though going fast in a straight line is fun - i would get over it wayy to quick
i would much rather have a 200hp+ hp integra/civic etc than a 250hp turbo integ/civic.
my 2 cents.
Makes perfect sense to me brother!
Cheers!
So for deivability on the Street/Track your recomending a sc setup? I am also looking into a JRSC on 6psi for my b16 (EG) can anyone give me an idea on the improvements it made? how drivability is?Quote:
Originally Posted by LUD35
Oil pump?Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
Thre is nothing magical about the rotrex...
What kind of rotor speeds are u going to be running to get 10psi by 3500rpm? How are u bypassing the additional boost? Of are you trying to tell me that your centrifugal charger is making the boost non-linearly? IS there a clutch system?
Just read the above post on the vortech. its exactly whats doing to happen with your setup, except the rotrex will be a little quieter.
The big problem about turbo hondas is that everyone wants massive power and massive revs. They arnt track guys, so all the purist (read: trying to justify money on NA mods that do nothing) get put off and pigion hole the FI crowd as straightline only. Use a small efficent turbo setup and u will get fullboost by 2500rpm, lots of predictablity, partial throttle response and still have plenty of revs to play with. Get urself a nice boost controller and play with gains, setup boost-by-gear and u can emulate a centrifugal setup without the parasitic loss. Its about area under the curve.
I just put together a turbo setup for a guy with a bluebird KA24DE. Used the biggest GT20 i could get my hands on. THis thing makes fullboost (14psi) at 800-1000rpm. Lots of torque, drops of quickly after 4500. Its an extreme case, but just showing u aftermarket turbo dont always have to be about 'tha peak powa outputs'.