ALLMOTOR Build Question

Just wanted to ask the resident experts...

With regards to a b16A2 setup using stock conrods + EK9/SPOON/OTHER high compression pistons and rings and stock cams intending to make power up to 9000rpm

1. Will stock ECU (obd2) + VAFC be sufficient (not optimal i know, but SUFFICIENT)

2. If above is insufficient... would it make sense to put one of those "mugen Ecus" in

3. Does the fuel system (ie: pump, injectors, etc) need upgrading at this point

4. Does stock ignition system (plugs, leads, dizzy, coils, etc) need changing

Feel free to comment as i'm still researching and i havent bought any parts as yet. Do i really need cams to make power up to 9000rpm or not necessary?

ps: on my budget...the max i would get are EK9 Cams + springs (no retainers)

cheers

If you're intending to rev to 9k, you'll need to upgrade the rod bolts at least. Stock fuel and Ignition is fine.

You'll definitely need an after market ECU you allow you to rev to 9k. VAFC does not have the ability to change the rev limiter.

if ur goin to spend the money on high comp pistons y not make sure its all good with a good computer??
isnt that better than everythin screwin up??

yeah agree ,a good computer will help a lot ,e manage or hondata are highly recommanded, also you need some rod bolt and head stud just to be safe

sydteg21 - who the hell "highly recommends" e-manage?

AFAIK it is crap, and is highly NOT recommended.


**Ghost** not sure if you will make power to 9k with such limited mods...

but my point to you would be this:

with a limited budget, do not set goals in terms of rpm, power or anything silly like that.

plan your engine to be a system of parts working co-operatively together, and the numbers will work themselves out...

agreed tink - my limited knowledge of ecu's permits me to say that if you want to make "power" SAFELY up to 9000rpm then e-manage won't cut it... neither will a mugen ecu or spoon ecu as they are mapped to perform on a very stock engine.

if you are skimping on engine parts (ie using only CTR pistons) then DEFINITELY do not skimp on the ECU - will offer too much headache.

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Originally Posted by type one

agreed tink - my limited knowledge of ecu's permits me to say that if you want to make "power" SAFELY up to 9000rpm then e-manage won't cut it... neither will a mugen ecu or spoon ecu as they are mapped to perform on a very stock engine.

if you are skimping on engine parts (ie using only CTR pistons) then DEFINITELY do not skimp on the ECU - will offer too much headache.

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i agree wif type one, thats the headache im going through at the moment

if u want to rev up 9000rpm be prepared to have a deep pocket

so the rods are the weakest link here?

Just one thing... when engines reach high KMs and require a rebuild what is the thing that tends to die? Cos i'm presuming

1. the crankshaft being a solid and honda balanced piece of metal cannot break
2. the pistons/rings are most likely to die first
3. the conrods? i wanna know if these die

cos if i'm going to be bothered with a rebuild... i might as well do it all

rods the weakest link? no - but the rod *bolts* might be...

but the B16A piston accelleration is not too extreme as to put huge stress on them, but they are only $80, so why not?

IMO - your bearings will 'die' first, then rings...

the rest of the things you mention break due to '**** up' - not old age...

you really need to decide what your *goal* is man, you are still wandering around directionless...

hahaha i know

i want -

1. a reliable setup that will make the engine internals for PRACTICAL purposes brand new. Hence i'm not going to do this until my engine dies or is near death. I've only done under 150,000KM atm tho

2. a setup that makes considerably more power than a stock bolt-ons b16a.

3. the power increase must be worth the labor hours being paid for involved in the rebuild. Wot i mean by this is that if CTR pistons cost about 450 plus rings/etc... i'd pay 600 for some other brand (wiseco? eagle?) since its the same labor $$$ to put in the pistons

hope i'm making myself clearer now?

but to make considerably more power, you would need considerably more compression, and if you run more compressioon you will need larger camshafts, and to run larger camshafts you will need better valve springs and retainers.

plus you will need a suitable aftermarket EMS to control it all.

that is talking big $$$

the problem you seem to yet realise is that you cannot just add larger compression pistons and leave everything else stock. you could even lose power...

dont mind me asking but why must it rev to 9,000rpm ? Why not make good power at a mroe reliable lower rpm ?

no offence ben, but i think we have moved beyond *Ghosts* desire for an arbitary RPM limit and are exploring slightly deeper fundemental analysis of what his actual goals are...

any suggestions/input on how *Ghost*'s 3 above intentions (post#11)could be met?

In a Honda, Is all about Air flow...How well the engine can breath, Like Matching Flow from TB, to Intake manifold, to Head flow to extractor to catback to Muffler...if you got this rite, then you can start doing some cam phasing and play with the compression by using a thinner gasket and a higher compression Piston...get all those rite then only start worrying bout what kinda Electrical Gadget to get...EMS, injector balast, Fuel reg, ECU where it's critical of producing that lil bit of power...

thanks for all the inputs guys

You see i wanna do this in "stages" so i dont have to save money and spend in bulk

so i was thinking

Stage 1. change all gaskets + high comp pistons + Port and polish (all done in one go while head is off)

Stage 2. The extra bolt-ons pgclee mentioned, like FPR, ignition system (if required)

Stage 3. Bigger Cams, retainers, whole valvetrain basically

Stage 4. Whole ems setup

What i want to know is... would nething blow up/not work properly/perform really really badly on its own through the 4 stages?

like if i was to do stage 1 with a 3 month gap between stage 2, does that mean my car will run like shit for 3 months? or would it still be good but not as good as it possibly can be?
Stage 3

i think if u set goals then try to reach them

but dont set goals then only spend 2k and expect miracles

just remember spoon pistons are balanced honda items

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Originally Posted by jimmeh

just remember spoon pistons are balanced honda items

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no, they are balanced matched OEM honda items...

That's it?!?! Balanced OEM pistons?

Anyone can do that.

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Originally Posted by EfiOz

That's it?!?! Balanced OEM pistons?

Anyone can do that.

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errrr not when u balance and match it within a 1/4 of a bee's penis of weight and variation.. not something u can do wtih kitchen scales man

No, but anyone with the right kind of weight balance can. They're not even expensive anymore.

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Originally Posted by pgclee

In a Honda, Is all about Air flow...How well the engine can breath, Like Matching Flow from TB, to Intake manifold, to Head flow to extractor to catback to Muffler...if you got this rite, then you can start doing some cam phasing and play with the compression by using a thinner gasket and a higher compression Piston...get all those rite then only start worrying bout what kinda Electrical Gadget to get...EMS, injector balast, Fuel reg, ECU where it's critical of producing that lil bit of power...

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OK since this thread is in the FAQ i have to correct this.... If anything you do them last if you know your building the engine.
Whats the point of spending X amount on them for them to change the way they work together when you do camshafts.... huuuuuuge waste of money.

So u are saying you should just change the comp ratio and forget bout the flow? are you correcting him for that??? hmm...

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Originally Posted by todaek9

So u are saying you should just change the comp ratio and forget bout the flow? are you correcting me for that??? hmm...

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whats compression ratio got to do with what i corrected?

Compresison ratio and camshaft spec should always be decided together.

you get comp ratio and camshaft rite then you can do the rest.... heres an easy example for you...

most ppl who start modifying will get like a 2 or 2.25in press bent catback hoping to get some gains... fair enough if you want to leave it at I/H/E... I went with 2.5in mandrel on 1.6l motor first time around because i knew i was going to build the head later. Man why would I want to pay for it again when i knew I was going to get say Toda B cams later and up the CR to 12:1. In that example, porting and all that shit... would you justify the labour cost for an extra maybe 3wkw on a mild setup even though the head is off etc etc... YOU DECIDE THE WHOLE MATCHING SETUP FROM THE START AS WELL AS POWERBAND TO GET THE MOST OUT OF YOUR $$$

As i've advised with anyone, a full exhaust system is the single most expensive bolt-on you do to a car that you don't want to have to spend on twice. At least plan everything first and don't listen to the next exhaust shop that tells you that 2in is more than enough for a small 1.6l

So what you're essentially saying (which i'm still trying to figure out), is that if i had plans to transform my little b16a into a 85 x 92mm monster at some point in the future, i should slap a 3 inch exhaust, big tube tri-y header and heavily ported IM on there now and be done with it to avoid the hassel later right? :p

Not a realistic consideration for most car modifiers. Most of us perform our upgrades one by one over the course of a few years. From my experience, those who take on the big builds tend to do it all at once cutting the costs you're referring to. But that's in an ideal world which isn't available to most of us.

I see absolutely no problem with the approach you criticised - achieving a nice smooth flow through the intake, head and exhaust (port matched throttle body and intake manifold etc) is a logical step after intake and exhaust themselves are addressed. A port and polish on the head may be overkill if the cams and compression aren't changed, but that wasn't mentioned in the post you quoted.

Joe

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Originally Posted by joewalsh86

So what you're essentially saying (which i'm still trying to figure out), is that if i had plans to transform my little b16a into a 85 x 92mm monster at some point in the future, i should slap a 3 inch exhaust, big tube tri-y header and heavily ported IM on there now and be done with it to avoid the hassel later right? :p
Joe

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i agree with your post, i don't understand what todaek9 is getting at...

the people who do things in phases are people who buy parts one at at time and install them in combinations which is like 80% of people here which is what you said in your 2nd paragraph.

My original point with my thread bumping was that if you know your doing internals, do that first then all the breathing mods later.

In your scenario, it's like me doing your absolute basic i/h/e with the common brands mentioned here like xforce, then doing the big bore/stroke build then realising that i needed all hat 3in, tri-y stuff you speak off...

It was your post that i didn't understand.

Whilst it may be your opinion to do internals before the basic I/H/E, that's not something i agree with. I plan on going to an 85mm bore with a set of pro 1's, but i wouldn't do that before knowing what i could have acheived in terms of power from a decent header, intake and exhaust.

That doesn't mean to say that your opinion is wrong, it's just something I don't agree with it. It's also not something that the person you quoted agrees with either, along with the majority of people I know who modify hondas.

More often than not, this forum is a place where opinions are exchanged - just becuase you don't agree with an opinion (which i think is perfectly valid) doesn't mean that it's wrong and needs correcting.

My Advice is to think about your entire set-up first, plan it out and make sure You do it right the first time. There is nothin worse than spending money on something, only to not be happy with it two months later and have to upgrade and spend money again.

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Originally Posted by dsp26

As i've advised with anyone, a full exhaust system is the single most expensive bolt-on you do to a car that you don't want to have to spend on twice. At least plan everything first and don't listen to the next exhaust shop that tells you that 2in is more than enough for a small 1.6l

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Haha, I had three different sets of headers on my b16a = Xforce-5zigen-toda. Also had three different cat back set-ups = custom press bent-buddyclub-5zigen/buddyclub. And two different "hi-flo" cats...I was stupid at the start :( then got a little bit smarter :o Then I had a bit of bad luck which forced another change :eek: Finally after three years I think I am on to a nice exhaust set-up :thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsp26

As i've advised with anyone, a full exhaust system is the single most expensive bolt-on you do to a car that you don't want to have to spend on twice. At least plan everything first and don't listen to the next exhaust shop that tells you that 2in is more than enough for a small 1.6l

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Sooo, you've plan...and the result of your car is, i'm sure of nothing but Magnificent...am i rite?

Soo..what is wrong with doing match flow and then only play ard with Comp ratio?
Because you HIGHLIGHT the whole sentence, means that there is smth WRONG with his ways...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by todaek9

Sooo, you've plan...and the result of your car is, i'm sure of nothing but Magnificent...am i rite?

Soo..what is wrong with doing match flow and then only play ard with Comp ratio?
Because you HIGHLIGHT the whole sentence, means that there is smth WRONG with his ways...

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lol just starting... hows the times with your crate/built motor?

it is nothing magnificent right now because my build won't start till next month as i am still finalising parts.. but yes i've had my i/h/e in my car for a year with a 2.5in mandrel system.. and yes it lost power down low and i knew what i was getting into as yes i do have an ultimate plan for the engine which is only coming to fruition now (1yr later).

It is subjective and there is in a way nothing wrong with his ways i was correcting based on a costing viewpoint which we all know in this Honda community is so important with everyone trying to get everything cheap... If anything i did exactly what he stated, the difference is that I had a plan from the beginning and knew what i put in 1yr earlier in terms of exhaust will be mandatory for my build.

what DNYALL posted above is exactly what i'm getting at and is what i'm trying to help n00bs with (the ones that actually search and find good threads like this)

I know exactly what joewalsh86 is getting at and it makes sense for his serious all-motor build... however he is an example of someone who knows what he's doing and has clearly planned... that doesn't cater for the majority of people here trust me.

Let me put it into perspective... what do you lose if you got say a full 2in exhaust and 4-1s to begin with then got your Toda built motor that actually sees full potential with a 2.5in and tri-y's instead... you just lost yourself $1k??

joewalsh86 justify's that he'd rather see the actual gains with different setups.. fine he's got the recources, knowledge and friends to do so.... do 90% of people here have access to those recources... most of these people don't even dyno or take their cars to the track....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by todaek9

So u are saying you should just change the comp ratio and forget bout the flow? are you correcting him for that??? hmm...

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to answer the above, i get this feeling your arguing for the sake of it...
like i said decide on the comp ratio and camshaft together... head flow?!?! why would that matter if a certain setup makes low or midrange power?!?!

flow of an exhaust system? okay flow of an exhaust system is dependent on overall scavenging effect which is a combination of things all the way from the head to the exhaust system... optimally (which is hard to achieve) the intake vacuum pressure should be equivalent to exhaust pressure which requires machines to measure and no-one here can guestimate...

intake flow?? wow lets see... filter-->cai/sri-->tb size-->plenum/runner setup-->head porting-->camshafts-- cam gear dial, valve job and valve sizes.... wow thats a lot of money... wouldn't wanna have to change most of that because i realised my Toda A's are choking and should have got B or Cs instead... then this person get's Cs and realises.. oh crap.. more money coz my CR is too low and maybe my gearing isn't suitable... "shit i was only aiming for a 100-110kw beast, but because i didn't plan properly i'm only making 95wkw with a poor powerband and i have to spend more money to take advantage of everything else..."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by todaek9

Sooo, you've plan...and the result of your car is, i'm sure of nothing but Magnificent...am i rite?

Soo..what is wrong with doing match flow and then only play ard with Comp ratio?
Because you HIGHLIGHT the whole sentence, means that there is smth WRONG with his ways...

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Nah man, I pointed that out to say he is most likely right and to give an example of my mistake of exhaust choice which ended up in me spending much more money than I should of. I read wat he posted about exhaust choice and thought of the mistakes I made. All I was saying is, do it right the first time and avoid spending more money than neccesary. I made this mistake in the past cos I was a Full Noob and I don't want other people making the same mistake.

I am going through an engine build atm and am facing all the same questions as the thread starter. I havn't decided how far I want to go with it. So many factors that need to be worked out.

yea, fair enough...
nah, i'm not arguing..just curious of what he's building thats all...lol..
but there will not be a best choice of exhaust or what so ever...just that smth which will not make you lost power will seem to be the best choice...and i also wonder have i really make the rite choice with my own exhaust..hahahaha...sounds awsome but also sounds like it is restricted..hahahaha...

i'm also curious on one thing...though what i'm bout to say is totally outta topic, a mate of mine was driving and he pull with this S15...he was driving a civic...i was told that he pull away from this S15 with quite abit of mods to it..boost ctrl, power FC, etc etc...i was quite amaze as well and i assume it is quite impressive as an S15 with that kinda mods will have roughly ard 200kw atw...so, can someone give me a conclusion?

maybe he is building one of these

http://youtube.com/watch?v=J5IYxlCBESk&feature=related

i am getting +rep for a three year old post?

this thread really delivers!!!!!

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Originally Posted by tinkerbell

i am getting +rep for a three year old post?

this thread really delivers!!!!!

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lol it's cause i search and read the FAQs in both Tech/All Motor :p

the system works!! huurah!