On OEM Honda LSDs
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Originally Posted by mfactory
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On OEM Honda LSDs
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Originally Posted by mfactoryif you are going to get a gearbox with an oem lsd, make sure it is a type-r gearbox only (ek9 or itr), as these have the helical lsd.
If you go for the "factory option" lsd's (i.e b16a, b18c non type-r), they are all viscous lsd's which are not worth the money.
On LSDs and Oils
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Originally Posted by mfactoryfor daily drivers and weekend warriors, honda mtf is more than adequate. If it is just a daily driver that sees no harsh shifting whatsoever, then 10w30 engine oil is also more than adequate.
Honda mtf is just 10w30 engine oil + friction modifiers i.e helps the synchros to "bite" better.
E240 did not state that you should use engine oil in a race car, so i don't know why you keep asking that.
For a honda transmission, used on something that will see a lot of track time, what you want is:
1) low viscosity fluid. This is 100% necessity, as the fluid needs to lubricate the bearings. Thick "gear oil" cannot do this, and will clog up the oil pathways
2) friction modifiers + yellow metal friendly. The modifiers help the synchros to to "bite" better against the gear cone. A synchro ring after all is just a brake pad. The additives in the fluid must also be yellow metal friendly (i.e brass synchros). A lot of the "performance gear oils" on the market are not yellow metal friendly, and every special "lsd oil" on the market has the wrong type of friction modifier i.e they make the plates "slip", thus they also make the synchros "slip", which is not want you want when shifting at high rpm.
3) shock additives. These make the fluid more shear stable at high temperatures, and help cushion the shock loads generated by the transmission.
Now, the following is probably hard for most to take in, as they've been brainwashed by the lsd manufacturers for god knows how many decades now:
Helical/torsen lsd - this is a gear type lsd, it does not require any special sort of fluid. Just use fluid that meets the requirements stated above
plate lsd - this type of lsd uses plates, which rub against each other causing the "lock" (helical lsd's do not lock as they are torque biasing). The more friction there is, the harder the plates will lock. A by product of this though is "chatter" i.e the noise commonly associated with a plate lsd. As with the helical lsd, a plate lsd does not require a special type of fluid. Just use fluid that meets the requirements stated above. However, if you do not like the "chatter", then you should add ford friction modifier in very small quantities until the level of "chatter" becomes acceptable to your ears. Noise control is the only reason to use this type of friction modifier (which has the opposite effect of the friction modifier used in mtf or synchromesh-type fluids) on the average street/weekend warrior. If it is a race only car, then you shouldn't be concerned with noise. In this scenario, using friction modifier is so that you can fine tune how much the plates "lock".
The only reason why an lsd manufacturer insists that you must use their "special oil" is because they are trying to make more money from you. And 90% of car enthusiasts, unfortunately, have been brainwashed and believe them (or believe their tuner/mechanic, who are just as brainwashed).
So to conclude:
Street car/daily driver - honda mtf
street car/weekend warrior - honda mtf/torco mtf/amsoil mtf/pennzoil synchromesh
race car - torco mtf/amsoil mtf/pennzoil synchromesh
+ plate lsd - add ford friction modifier until the noise level becomes acceptable to you. Everyone is different. However, the more you add, the less effective your synchros are at high rpm.
P.s if you are wondering why i left out redline, it is because with 70% of our rebuild customers who had used it, it had destroyed their bearings. Some have luck, some don't.
More LSD
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Originally Posted by mfactorythere is no difference in "torque application" between an oem itr torsen differential, and the quaife atb differential. Both have the same bias ratio to transfer torque. The only difference between the two is in the manufacturing of the units i.e the oem will start to see it's limit around 400whp, then go boom
the itr unit is not a 1 way lsd. "way" is solely reserved for plate type lsd's that lock; an itr unit is not a plate type and does not lock.
Infact, a gear type differential is not even a true lsd (limited slip differential), they are torsens' (torque sensing differentials). The word lsd (in relation to torsens') is used purely for marketing.
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Originally Posted by MFactoryCurrent issue with the OBX's (both B and D) is the runout on them i.e they are very slightly oval
this causes them to wobble, and in the really bad cases, cause the tranny to bind up causing premature failure of bearings etc
From the units that were measured, the OBX varied between 0.01" to 0.03" runout. Compare this to the Quaife average of around 0.004", and the MFactory's which are all in the 0.000x" range
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Originally Posted by e240Thats a tall claim - if that were the case, the Quaife wouldn't see the need to even put in exclusions, but they have. But having said that, I agree Quaife makes great LSDs - obviously their reputation preceeds them. But I am also confident to say that MFactory's LSD are on par with Quaife at a competitive price. I have not heard of any MFactory LSDs breaking when installed and maintained correctly - and all our LSDs are driven hard and used in Racing, Rallying and Drag.
I'm typing this from memory at work :-p From your description above, it appears that you may not know the difference between the types of LSDs and why some are noisy and some not.
So, to understand the noise, you need to understand how the various LSDs work. There are typically 2 types of Mechanical LSDs.
A Torsen/Helical (also called ATB) or Clutch (Also called Metal Plate). Both work very differently and are designed to meet different purposes.
Torsen/Helical - MFactory Helical / Quaife
Clutch/ Metal - MFactory Metal / ATS
Torsen/Helical - These rely on a series of worm gears within the unit that lock or biase torque on acceleration (sensing torque) giving drive to both wheels. As these are just gears, they are quiet and relatively maintenance free (just the normal gearbox oil change required). They also don't need special oils and perform very well under majority of street driving conditions.
The disadvantage of these is that, in the event one wheel looses traction (i.e. especially with track driving where you ride kerbs and take short cuts through corners or could be as simple as one wheel loosing traction on a pool of water), the diff simply becomes an open diff with the power being transmitted to the wheel that has lost traction - No limited slip action. However, given that one typically does not drive 10/10s on the street, it is less of a concern.
So, summary:
1) Uses gears, so quiet and maintenance free
2) Fantastic for novice drivers and street use
3) Ok on track but will be out performed by the Metal LSDs
Clutch/Metal LSDs - These uses a series of clutches within the assembly to control slip. If slip is detected, the clutch within the unit will slip (hence the knocking noise) and enable the non slipping wheel to continue driving (instead of all power going into the slipping wheel). This mechanism will still allow the LSD to work when one wheel has lost grip althogether, unlike the helical, but the disadvantage is 1) Noise (from the slipping) 2) Wear (obviously - uses clutches) 3) Needs special oils.
As such, these tend to be used by more serious cars and drivers where performance outweighs any of the inconveniences.
So, Summary:
1) Clutch, Noisy
2) Requires maintenance - wear rate dependent on usage
3) Fantastic for hard core drivers where every little bit counts!
The Clutch/Metal LSD can further be divided in to 1 way, 1.5 Way and 2 Way. The best for a FWD is a 1.0, where being more understeer prone, no lock on decel allows better controllability of the car. 1.0 way is also good for someone who has never used a metal lsd before because the bit can be overwhelming.
In summary, I think all FWDs need an LSD - if you have never driven a car with an LSD, you should try - it makes the car heaps safer.
Some LSD Facts
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Originally Posted by MFactoryYou don't require mods to the diff casing at all (shims take care of any thrust clearance issues). You can use the same 18mm bearings.
The only difference is the B16A's smaller diameter ring gear versus the B16B/B18C's larger diameter ring gear.
If you swap out the ring gear (and countershaft to match), you can fit the LSD.
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Originally Posted by gambatechanging diff for EK9 box here.
new diff comes with ball bearing+1.5mm shim. old diff has taper needle bearing.
wat else do i need to change? or should i look for the appropriate needle bearing instead?
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Originally Posted by MFactoryThat's fine, the B16B/18C uses the 19.5mm ball bearings (hence why you have the standard 18mm B16 bearings + 1.5mm shim). Honda discontinued the taper bearings.
Lsd & lsd
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Originally Posted by e240small clarification on the mfactory lsd
the mfactory unit is not a reverse engineer of quaife or obx, neither are these made by the same manufacturer.
We have our gears manufactured to our specifications and we apply our own high standards to its manufacture as a result, our finishing and tolerances are much better than obx and competitors albeit still managing to offer at a competitive price.
Mfactory lsd are fast gaining popularity in the us because of competitive pricing and high quality.
"gain a prominent advantage over the competition with the mfactory helical lsd.
Through the smooth and constant distribution of power to the wheels, the mfactory helical lsd puts the power-to-the-ground and maximises your vehicle's traction. A must for any fwd race car, be it street, strip or track!
- made from 100% pure australian steel, not cheap chinese steel
- precision-machined from high-tensile forged chromoly steel for increased strength and durability
- only the highest quality brighton-best hardware is used
- maintenance-free gears eliminates the need for special fluids & rebuilds associated with plate-type lsds
- lock-free operation ensures no adverse affect to steering response"
read the following threads
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2380842
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread...t=lsd+mfactory
my personal experience with obx (something i never told anyone)
1. Had to machine the lsd to fit properly (both inside and outside)
2. Changed the main bolts to proper high tensile ones cause the original ones were crap
3. Drive shafts kept getting stuck to had to machine the inside splines on the lsd
http://forum.clubitr.com.au/showthre...?t=9587&page=3
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Originally Posted by e240Really depends on the usage.
There's race cars and street cars - as a general guide,
Race cars = Metal
Street cars = helical/torsen
however, there are exceptions to the street car,
If you're a hardcore performance junkie and can tolerate little inconvenience on the road - use the Metal for full one performance. Just get use to ignorant ppl/mates coming up to your car telling you its broken when they hear the slipping noise.
However, it does make for great stories in the "mates who are full of shit" thread on ozhonda.:handsup:
and then complete the whole picture/sound with our Twin Plate clutch as well..!!!
LSD & LSD & LSD - our way of life..What we do for a living..
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Originally Posted by e240Thanks to all for your support - I just want to clarify a few points
First of all, before I start, I would like to mention something, seeing as a point about manufacturing OEM for Ford/Renault was brought up to highlight the quality of the Quaife Unit. There is a reason why Honda of America chose MFactory as their official transmission supplier for all their production-based race cars, and not Quaife/Wavetrac/OBX.
Just a little information on differentials: A "Helical LSD" is not really an "LSD" i.e Limited Slip Differential. In general, the only differentials classed as Limited Slip are Plate/Clutch Type LSD's i.e MFactory Metal Plate, Kaaz/Spoon, ATS, OS Giken, Cusco
A "Helical LSD" is actually based upon the original "Torsen" design, so infact, instead of LSD, it should be called a TSD; Torque Sensing Differential. The term Helical LSD is only used for marketing purposes when referring to a TSD, although a lot of companies that offer/sell Helical LSD's don't even know the difference.
Quaife, being Quaife, decided to reverse-engineer the Torsen design (nothing wrong with that, we done it as well, as did Honda and lots of other companies), called theirs the ATB (Auto Torque Biasing) Differential, then decided to get a completely worthless European Patent for it to "look" original (they didn't tell people it was worthless though), market it as their super duper original lsd and would sue anyone in Europe who would release a similar design (even though it wouldn't stand up in court as their patent was worthless).
Because of this, in Europe, mention the word LSD, and the first thing that comes to mind is Quaife. Never would they have thought that Quaife is actually a copy of someone else. Is it a good quality product? Of course it is. Is it worth the money? Depends on the buyer. A Patek Philippe connoisseur would think a Rolex is cheap, just like how a Rolex connoisseur would think a Grand Seiko is cheap. In other words, you are paying for the Brand Name. There are 5 major brands of TSD's for a Honda: Honda, Quaife, MFactory, Wavetrac, OBX
Which brand TSD is actually better though? They are all good quality (except the OBX. No other words can describe just how bad the quality is), so it's really up to the buyer to decide:
Strength/Durability:
OEM - Cast. Is weaker than the metal it was cut from
Quaife - Machine Cut (Billet). As strong as the metal it was cut from
Wavetrac - Machine Cut (Billet). As strong as the metal it was cut from
MFactory - Forged. Upto 30% tougher than the metal it was cut from
OBX - Cast. Is weaker than the metal it was cut from
Quality (Machining/Tolerance):
OEM - Within oem specs
Quaife - Within oem specs
Wavetrac - Within oem specs (after they fixed their axle issues)
MFactory - Within oem specs
OBX - Toss of a coin. Some are ok (but still quite bad), some are ridiculously bad
Performance:
OEM - Fine for most grocery getters. Might find your diff exploding though after a few aggressive seasons. Cannot handle too high of a torque level
Quaife - No difference in aggressiveness from OEM as same bias ratio and tooth angle. Can handle higher torque. 2010+ models lighter weight (after copying us. Ironic, as pro-Quaife consumers think we are just a cheap copy of them)
Wavetrac - No difference in aggressiveness from OEM as same bias ratio and tooth angle. Patent-pending design that allows it to function under extreme traction loss (i.e one wheel in the air). Effectiveness rather controversial though. Can handle higher torque.
MFactory - Same bias ratio as OEM, but more aggressive tooth angle (i.e more power is transferred to the ground). Can handle higher torque. Is lightweight (due to being Forged + our weight reducing features)
OBX - Is a cheap copy of the Quaife. Toss of a coin. Get a good one, and you may be ok for a while. Otherwise, expensive tranny rebuild.
Value for Money:
OEM - No warranty (unless it is original equipment). Very expensive brand new, relatively affordable 2nd Hand
Quaife - Lifetime warranty (dependant on Distributor policy. Officially, Quaife only offer the warranty to their own customers). As the saying goes, you get what you pay for. Is the most expensive.
Wavetrac - Lifetime warranty. Again, you get what you pay for. Is slightly cheaper than the Quaife
MFactory - Lifetime warranty. Goes against the saying; You actually get more than what you pay for ;). Is the cheapest "Quality" differential, but is certainly not "cheap" (it is "lower cost" because of our manufacturing process i.e Forging, not because of its Quality).
OBX - Lifetime warranty (which is never honored). You get what you pay for, and is a very expensive paperweight if you buy a dud. By far the cheapest.
Brand Recognition:
OEM - Who's never heard of Honda?
Quaife - The most recognisable
Wavetrac - Owned by Autotech, the previous North American distributor for Quaife. Ditched Quaife (and left a lot of warranty claims in the gutter) to pursue their own product line
MFactory - We released our Helical LSD 2 years ago. Since the late 90's, Quaife had 70% share of the North American Honda aftermarket. Now, in 2011, we have 70% share of the North American Honda aftermarket. The rest is shared between Quaife/Wavetrac/OBX
OBX - An eBay Company
In summary? The MFactory is Stronger, Lighter and Machined Better than the Quaife, and this is a proven fact. To top it off, it is also a lower cost. The only reason why you would purchase a Quaife over an MFactory, is if you are after the brand name/bragging rights.
Hope this information will be of use to you :)
Great read!
2nd tot haet