inverted tie rod end or Roll centre adjuster?

[blk_shadow]

Hey guys,

have searched about this topic, but I still couldn't find a satisfying answer for this issue.

Obviously, people with either DC5 or EP3 face this problem (a horrible geometry angle on the tie rods) when they lower their cars.

now my question is: is it recommended to use inverted tie rod ends (AKOM, T1R etc.) and yes I have heard some issues with the T1R

J's racing tie rod set (I know ChargeR wouldn't recommend this, but I would like the opinion from some people since its not an inverted unit) OR

just simply bolting the Roll centre Adjuster from J's racing and use OEM tie rod and tie rod ends?

Thanks guys
much appreciated

[Nepolian]

Hey guys,

have searched about this topic, but I still couldn't find a satisfying answer for this issue.

Obviously, people with either DC5 or EP3 face this problem (a horrible geometry angle on the tie rods) when they lower their cars.

now my question is: is it recommended to use inverted tie rod ends (AKOM, T1R etc.) and yes I have heard some issues with the T1R

J's racing tie rod set (I know ChargeR wouldn't recommend this, but I would like the opinion from some people since its not an inverted unit) OR

just simply bolting the Roll centre Adjuster from J's racing and use OEM tie rod and tie rod ends?

Thanks guys
much appreciated

Roll centers are great and should be had if you track your car regularly.

To me, the point of inverted tie rod end is to, a) Correct/improve tie rod angle and b) Increase the ability adjust more toe when you run more camber as oem runs out of adjustment.

Alternatively, you can run an AKOM (style) steering block which raises the tie rods at the steer rack!

[chargeR]

The parts you mention have a number of different functions which of them are you trying to achieve?

Inverted tie rod ends: Will make the angle of the tie rods more horizontal and in the process completely change the bump steer (toe change with suspension droop and compression) characteristics of the front end. May also have a positive effect on steering rack longevity because it reduces the (very small) up and down loads on the rack. I can't comment on this because I have always had inverted ends since my car has been lower, and I have also changed tie rods 3 times and given my steering rack a lot of abuse and it still thrives on life.

Aftermarket tie rods: Generally used to obtain more toe adjustment on a lowered DC5 or EP3 with either a lot or not much camber. I have used J's Racing tie rods and whilst they looked nice they failed after one track event and less than 5000km. I have read of a number of other failures too. I changed to a set of modified stock tie rod ends and I haven't had a problem since although I can't recommend you do that either because shortening the rods makes them dangerously thin, see this thread for more information: LINK

Roll centre adjusters: Designed to raise the roll centre in a lowered car to reduce the roll moment and hence reduce roll. In theory these are a great idea but one has to consider that they will have a completely unknown effect on:

a) The front roll centre height and the way the roll centre migrates with suspension movement.

b) The front camber curve, or the amount of camber gained or lost as the suspension compresses.

c) The front bump steer behaviour.

d) Jacking forces.

e) Other stuff that I don't know that JohnL probably does .

So I personally am reluctant to make such a major change without any sort of information. If however J's Racing, for example, provided reliable data on suspension geometry at a given lowered ride height and hence info on what effect the RCAs would have on the aspects I mention above then I would be much more inclined to recommend installing them.

So which of these effects are you trying to achieve?

[blk_shadow]

Thanks for the reply guys, very informative.

ChargeR: what I'm trying to achieve is, to straighten up or at least close to flatten up the tie rods to reduce the stress on the steering rack. plus to give a little more of a negative camber at the front. my car is not that low, 2 finger gaps between the tyres and the wheel arches.

I'm going to track the car in a very near future, and I don't want to go down with this OEM-angled set up on the tie rods, as I believe they r not recommended for track abuse for the amount of stress given to the steering rack.

also, are the J's tie rods length-adjustable? or are they in fixed length?

because I read about some inverted tie rods you can't use cotter pin to secure them, hence you have to use nuts, and also the danger of the tie rod ends falling off.

[kongfu]

Js racing or Buddyclub RCA will help edwin

[blk_shadow]

Js racing or Buddyclub RCA will help Adwin

which one r u using on ur DC5, Dan?

[kongfu]

which one r u using on ur DC5, Dan?

Js racing Roll center adjuster.

[chargeR]

Thanks for the reply guys, very informative.

ChargeR: what I'm trying to achieve is, to straighten up or at least close to flatten up the tie rods to reduce the stress on the steering rack. plus to give a little more of a negative camber at the front. my car is not that low, 2 finger gaps between the tyres and the wheel arches.

I'm going to track the car in a very near future, and I don't want to go down with this OEM-angled set up on the tie rods, as I believe they r not recommended for track abuse for the amount of stress given to the steering rack.

also, are the J's tie rods length-adjustable? or are they in fixed length?

because I read about some inverted tie rods you can't use cotter pin to secure them, hence you have to use nuts, and also the danger of the tie rod ends falling off.

The J's tie rods are the same in general design as the OEM rods they simply allow more toe adjustment in both directions. ie. you will be able to get more toe in and more toe out compared to using the OEM tie rods. This allows you to get your toe to zero or toe'd out with significant negative camber. I had -5 front camber and zero toe when I used mine. Here is what the junky J's tie rods look like (on the left):



They will not, however, change the angle of the tie rods if that is what you are concerned about. If you must achieve that then I would recommend the steering bracket made by 0857 from ClubRSX although I am not sure if it works in EP3Rs. It will allow you to retain a normal OEM style enclosed ball joint at the tie rod end which are very reliable and quiet compared to the open Heim joints used in the T1R and other inverted tie rod end kits which can become noisy and won't ever be as reliable as an OEM part.

Just be aware that changing the angle of the tie rods has some pretty significant effects on bump steer and these effects may not be good.

Js racing or Buddyclub RCA will help edwin

Apologies in advance because you may know something that I do not, but did you read the above post that I have quoted. Roll Centre Adjusters will have a very minimal effect on both the angle of the tie rods and on the amount of toe adjustment available.

[blk_shadow]

The J's tie rods are the same in general design as the OEM rods they simply allow more toe adjustment in both directions. ie. you will be able to get more toe in and more toe out compared to using the OEM tie rods. This allows you to get your toe to zero or toe'd out with significant negative camber. I had -5 front camber and zero toe when I used mine. Here is what the junky J's tie rods look like (on the left):



They will not, however, change the angle of the tie rods if that is what you are concerned about. If you must achieve that then I would recommend the steering bracket made by 0857 from ClubRSX although I am not sure if it works in EP3Rs. It will allow you to retain a normal OEM style enclosed ball joint at the tie rod end which are very reliable and quiet compared to the open Heim joints used in the T1R and other inverted tie rod end kits which can become noisy and won't ever be as reliable as an OEM part.

Just be aware that changing the angle of the tie rods has some pretty significant effects on bump steer and these effects may not be good.



Apologies in advance because you may know something that I do not, but did you read the above post that I have quoted. Roll Centre Adjusters will have a very minimal effect on both the angle of the tie rods and on the amount of toe adjustment available.

hmm...yeah...thats the catch between Ep3R and Dc5R, not everything can be shared.

looks like there's only one way to go.

Thanks for the help guys!

[Jibz]

I'm running the Mugen Sport Suspension on my car and I believe it drops the ride height by 1.4 inches all around. For a drop like that, would running an inverted tie rod be overkill or would I be able to benefit somehow?

More reading in this area is needed, perhaps after exams though.

I recently put the J's RCAs in and I'm happy with them. At first I thought, "yeah its made a difference, front rolls less than before, feels good" but after driving a little longer I noticed a couple things.

Firstly, it significantly reduced bumpsteer. Previously, just to travel in a straight line I was having to make many corrections to the steering as I traveled over rough roads since the front was affected by bumps and any changes in camber quite significantly.

The other change, which is probably due to an alignment issue in the first place, was that if I hold the steering wheel in place and give any amount of throttle, the car would veer to the left very noticeably. With the RCA's, its absolutely gone.

A good upgrade for me but labour cost almost as much as the part itself. (I wouldn't want to attempt doing this myself after having a look at what it entailed).

On another note, thank you ChargeR for the DIY on the ESMM's, though for the EP3 its a bit different under there (mainly the front engine mount) and that required the front bar and radiator supports (and one fan) to come off before the engine mount would pop out!

[Sydneykid]

On the DC5 race cars we run Mugen steering arms on the struts, without them any more than 25 mm of lowering results in massive bump steer. The standard steering arms and tie rod ends are fine for the amount of toe out, a maximium of 3 mm each side and negative camber we run, a maximum of 4 degrees.

Cheers
Gary

[Jibz]

On the DC5 race cars we run Mugen steering arms on the struts, without them any more than 25 mm of lowering results in massive bump steer. The standard steering arms and tie rod ends are fine for the amount of toe out, a maximium of 3 mm each side and negative camber we run, a maximum of 4 degrees.

Cheers
Gary

So given that the Mugen SS lowers my car by 1.4 inches (35mm), a modification of some sort is needed for my tie rods?

The bump steer on our cars is also a function of the very small caster angles too, isn't it?