cam shafts... stock or aftermarket??? TODA?

[DreadAngel]

dreadangel - what experience have you had with cams? have u every used any aftermarket cams? worth the trouble?

Hey philip,

I've played with cams [Not F20C specific though strangely enough but quite a few other JDM engines =P] so I know the general philosophy behind them. I've used JUN Auto, TODA and Tomei along with a custom grind set in my previous car [Redline 10,000RPM and Cut-Off 11,000RPM, higher than your F20C LOL].

F20C is very hard to squeeze power out of [This is in reference to seeing demo cars from Amuse, J's, Spoon, Toda] in NA form. Remember that dyno sheets from manufacturers, overseas or local S2000s will all be very different so think of them in context and indications. In general USA dyno's are usually happier than Australian ones lol.

Have you checked out comments made about the Stage 2 cams from BC? Personally they look ok on the dyno, minor gain but that's what happens when we play with a highly developed small NA engine [<2.5L].

Key points for camshaft selection:

• Loss of Low-Mid Range - This only happens when you go too aggressive | Increase displacement to offset, Tune can also help to a degree
• Increase idle/unstable idle - As above but also can be caused by overlapping cams | Increase displacement to smooth the idle out some, Tune can also help to a degree
• Increase Redline - In order to take advantage of the bigger duration and lift offered by cams, depending how aggressive you go, you may have to raise the redline by 500rpm - 3000rpm+ to reap maximum benefits. Disadvantage of this is expenses and possibily durability [upgrading/machine work head + bottom end to withstand the exponential stress by increased rotational speed & force which is multiplied by the ^nth]. Now this can be eliminated by reducing the redline but what's the point of going so big if you were to do that, may as well go for smaller cams lol

The rest is up to you to decide whether or not its worth the $$$ to invest in. If possible ride shotgun or test drive a mates car with your setup, failing that check out forums, YT, etc for feedback by owners that have done the mods. Some of the more articulate ones will provide more accurate reviews and numbers than others.

[INT DIST/TODA]

on an s2000, not worth the trouble, save your money, and go Forced induction if you want gains.. Every component of the s2000 was designed to work at its best from factory. only FI will give you noticeable gains.

There are plenty of good bolt on options for an F20C that make very decent gains NA, hard to compare a mild spend on improved NA performance opposed to FI though and no, the F20C was not a great engine out of the factory, so many compromises were made based on budget, EPA and noise that the window to tune them even with a stock bottom end is there. What you do find though, is not too many of the aftermarket components actually out perform the OEM ones in the combos people try to use them and most internet mechanics do better on B and K series engine than the F for that reason. Most people that play with a K always go backwards also as they slap a combo of any cheap aftermarket part thinking that it must make more power otherwise why would they make it.

If the OP would like to contact me some advice based on budget and goals, happy to help.

[AusS2000]

There are plenty of good bolt on options for an F20C that make very decent gains NA

And let me guess, you sell them?

[Benson]

150+kw from an stock long block with bolt-on mods and ECU(tuned) is pretty decent! Comparing the F20C with a K20A engine with bolt-ons which has VTC, the F20C engine are still ahead.

Now go adding some boost to it, the F20C can make some very decent power with 1bar of boost. I would say a little over 300kw with E85

The standard S2000 headers and exhaust system is very capable of close to 300kw's!

[INT DIST/TODA]

AusS2000, Do Toda make proven parts that out do the OEM items which were quoted in this thread as being as good as it gets out of the factory, yes they do, was that your question?

The OP didnt bring up boost, so I didnt feel the need to offer advice other than they respond very well to boost.

Good post Benny re F and K figures on bolt on's, it shows the refinement of the F20C without VTC, but thats not to say it cant be improved upon which is most of the advice on this thread, its just incorrect.

[AusS2000]

Umm, no I think my question was is the person spruiking the products the one who profits from them.

No where did I say Toda don't make quality parts, but it's good to be able to distinguish unbiased opinions and sales speak.

[INT DIST/TODA]

So if I sell a quality part that can offer the person the results they need, whats the problem or a need for the post you wrote to begin with?

Would you like me to advise them and suggest they buy the parts elsewhere and pay more?

What is your contribution to this thread apart from these comments, if the OP would like my advice and then buy parts, great, if he takes my advice and buys elsewhere, thats his choice, im offering help, unlike you, trying to look useful.

I also dont need to be biased, I know the products work.

[AusS2000]

Look, I know you're here to make a buck so let's see what the deal is. Toda cams: how much $$? how much kw?

Any supporting mods required? Fitment costs?

[ALPS]

lol pls define decent.. do you mean 5-7 hp gains? you could spend shit loads of money, and get 'quality NA parts' for a 10 - 20rwkw gain or so combined. but by the time you go through all the headaches and hassles getting the cams to work well and everyother bit n blah blah blah.. you can slap on a 'quality' FI kit which will easily double your cars power. and probably be even less hassle and same amount of money, if not less. if turbo/supercharger sizing chosen right, you'll have a very good overall response.. and you're contradicting yourself saying that it's not a good engine from factory and then saying aftermarket bits dont out perform OEM ones. They make these parts because they know there's mechanic/racers out there who race in NA classes where they go to the extent of adjusting their response/rev range depending on their track requirements where the extra 4-5hp differences will help.. Other than that i see it as a complete waste of money, unless of course like i said, youre loaded and you just want baller status

[INT DIST/TODA]

ALPS, the OP isnt asking for FI options, so whilst its all good and well to say spend your money on going FI opposed to NA, that isnt what has been asked, so its not a relevant conversation for this thread, but a valid one.

Wayne, from memory you were in IT or Web Design, so in your profession, do you go handing out advice or knowledge and your time for no reward, I dont see why you seem to think this industry is different to any other, why do you?

But for the benfit of the OP, it goes like this.

A stock S2k is about 145kw at the wheels, with intake mods, Toda cams, header and tune, I have seen low 160's ( Answering the original question on this thread and if the OP would like any advice for his build )

F20C's also benifit greatly from slight head work and valve seat and pocket work that has evolved a massive amount since the F20C was produced thanks to better cnc machines, add this and you can look at another 3-6kw on the above figure.

Going off topic but talking about NA performance figures for a F20C.

Go 2.2 and you can get 180-200kw, go 2.4 you can get to 200kw's +

We are working on a 2.2 based version with some ASM mods later in the year for a possible NA S2K entrant in next years WTA, as we have just finished fitting our almost complete carbon bodykit to Elias WTA S2000 and our turbo s2000 is next in line for the full kit we'll offer, with this NA build though, we will be hoping to push a 2.2 towards 200 +, this is without VTC of course, but VTC has been done on a F20C and the results are great as you can imagine.

To sum it up, a stock F20C is a great engine but one that can be improved upon, which wasnt the common advice throughout this thread, which is what I was looking to correct.

[fatboyz39]

How many tuning shops out there have successfully built and tuned a 2.4L to 200kw +? 2.2L stroker kit will set you back 6-8k, a decent 2.4L kit will be close to that value. Now going onto the head, CNC port, bigger valves, springs, cams and etc... there goes a good $3500. After that you'll have to address intake/header/exhaust OEM components are not suitable/up to the task there goes big bucks again.

To the OP - The cost of installing cams and tuning it you won't benefit much. Keep it simple, bigger throttle body + Intake + 70mm exhaust (stock headers are more then capable). Some sort of aftermarket ECU (Hondata/haltech/aem) and a tuner that knows F20c. This was shown on MADS2K (Elliott) with is internally stock f20c he manage some amazing laptimes at Wakefield Park and Eastern Creek GP.

If you want more power go for supercharger kit (S0S kit are very nice) for linear power, this will help prevent gearbox or diff failures. If you want a rush of power go turbo, be warn diff may break.

If you want to keep it n/a, be prepare to spend big bucks.

[ALPS]

and i'm just saying it's not worth spending money on trying to increase power any other way.. if you want to keep it NA, you're better off spending your money on improving handling components.. braces/wheels/tyres/brakes/suspension etc.. and if i were you, i'd change my diff ratio. that'll give you the most noticeable acceleration keeping it NA, obviously losing top speed..