The Oil Thread Explained

[Black_DC5_R]

Ok, after reading "The Oil Thread" it seems like there are a ot of people here that know NOTHING about engines and oils, and some that think that they do, and are mis-informed, and then some that do know the facts about oils. This is for the first two types of people.

I'm not having a dig at you, although I might sound harsh, but this is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO DO WITH YOUR CAR, ABOVE ALL ELSE!!!

One of the MOST important, and CRITICAL things to get right for your car is the OIL.

Just before you take the word of some raving lunatic who knows nothing about cars other than what was decided on by a few blokes drinking beer, peering at the engine with the hood up on the weekend... I'm a mechanic at the Ferrari dealership in Adelaide, Prestige Formula.

Lets get things rolling, because this is going to be a long post, and I'm going to cover everything, along with all the mistakes written by people in this thread, and again let me stress: JUST BECAUSE I CORRECT WHAT YOU HAVE SAID, DOESN'T MEAN I'M HAVING A DIG AT YOU OR SAYING YOU'RE AN IDIOT, I'M CORRECTING THE INFORMATION GIVEN TO YOU BY PEOPLE WHO DONT KNOW BETTER.

Lets get things started:

First off, the question asked to start this thread off is a problem which can be a variety of many things. It's hard to diagnose it, rather it's only possible to have stabs in the dark about it, simply because its very hard to explain the problem and noise in writing, rather than being there to see the behavior and hear the actual noises coming from the engine. Someone said that there could be too much oil in the sump, which is a good suggestion. Mechanics in dealerships, and some smaller workshops, need to turn over cars very quickly, which means that the oil only has the chance to drain in the time from when the sump plug is cracked open, to the time that it takes to walk underneath the car, check the suspension, exhaust etc. for damage and leaks, then walk back and re-fit the sump plug. It is still draining at this time, although only slowly. This means that when they put the measured amount of oil in that the car specifies, it can result in too much. This is normally only a small amount over full. They can also make a mistake and mis-measure, resulting in putting too much in again. They then turn on the engine for about 30 seconds, in order to have the oil pump circulate the oil through the system and fill the new oil filter, before the check the final oil level. If this is found to be too full, VERY few will then put the car back up in the air to drain a little. The only time that the oil will be reduced from this over-full level is if they have a modified brake bleeder that connects to the compressed air line, with which they can feed a thin line down the dip stick tube to suck out the excess. This over-full amount of oil causes damage to the engine because of a few reasons. Firstly the crank will "slap" this higher level of oil. This causes a series of sudden sharp stresses on the reciprocating bottom end components, as well as putting this stress into the bottom end bearings. This wears the components prematurely and is evident by a sluggish engine response. This slapping of the oil also causes airation or "cavitation" of the oil, which means that it does to the oil the same thing that an egg beater does to eggs. This is not good for the oil, engine or oil pressure, resulting in engine damage again.

Another cause for the "tdrak tdrak tdrak" is that the oil is not the correct weight for the engine... but first lets explain a few things before some people will understand this cause.


Oil weight:
As referred to by some of you as "thickness", but lets be correct and call it the oils "viscosity"...

Lets have a science lesson, since we want to make educated decisions when we have the life of a $5-10k hunk of metal's life in our hands.

Viscosity is expressed in terms of the time required for a standard quantity of the fluid at a certain temperature to flow through a standard orifice. The higher the value, the more viscous the fluid. Since viscosity varies inversely with temperature, its value is meaningless unless accompanied by the temperature at which it is determined. With petroleum oils, viscosity is measured at either 40°C or 100 °C.

Multi-weight oils (such as 10W-30) are a new invention made possible by adding polymers to oil. The polymers allow the oil to have different weights at different temperatures. The first number indicates the viscosity of the oil at a cold temperature, while the second number indicates the viscosity at operating temperature.

Now that we know what we are talking about, lets now understand what it does.

Well obvious to some, it lubricates all of the parts which come into friction with each other, such as bearings, con rod pins, piston and bore etc.

Ok, hope this isn't news to anyone, who maybe just thought you put it in there coz you can...

Back a long time ago, or in the case of Holden and GM engines in the present, this is all the oil needs to do, so, I hate to say it, you CAN sorta get by putting any type and weight of oil in them with only a slight change that they will damage the engine.

Now, since we have Honda engines, being OZHonda, lets know what we're dealing with here.

Honda engines only have 2 rivals in the WORLD that can compete with their build quality and sophistication... Toyota and Ferrari. Porsche buy their valve system technology from the Japanese who hold the patents.

Get my drift, so you can't get away from saying "she'll be right" coz she wont.

Its like having a supermodel wife and deciding to do the plastic surgery yourself.

Getting back to it, first the oil weight. The oil weight has to be PERFECT for numerous reasons. Firstly it must be thin enough to get between all of the EXTREMELY tight clearances of the components. It also needs to be able to flow through the very fine oil jets to cool the bottom of the pistons, actuate the VTEC system etc... "So why not just use a really light weight oil then?"

Well, if the oil is too light, then when the huge forces are placed on the components, such as the crank shaft on the bearings, the oil will simply be squeezed out, resulting in the friction surface of the two being metal to metal with no lubrication, therefore < engine life and performance.

Ok, now the type of oil.. synthetic or mineral.

Its REALLY easy to answer both the weight AND type of oil to use... grab your owners manual and look up what type is specified by Honda. ONLY USE THIS!

These engines are DESIGNED to use this specific oil. Heard the saying "oils 'aint oils'?

Some people say, "use a synthetic"... But what synthetic!?

EVERY synthetic oil is different from brand to brand. All of them have different additives. Such as anti-wear, detergent... which are when zinc and sulphated ash are added, which are completely different percentages from brand to brand, oil to oil.


Use the wrong one and you can glaze your bores, have them react in ways that they shouldn't etc.

Want some proof though, I bet that you do after reading all of this and saying to yourself, "ah, whatever... I've been using this oil and it's been fine..."

Well we don't use the correct oil for the cars that we work on and sell.

We have two types of oil we use. The Shell Ultra oil for the Ferraris, and the crap Shell for the rest. No matter what car it is, we sell and service Alfas, Citroens, Mercs etc. They all get the same stuff.

Well the Alfas specify a specific Castrol oil, which sits in a drum in the corner of the workshop for show only.

We have had brand new engines blow after only 500km, some at 5000km and some just past 20,000km. Well, actually, spread across those various km's, we have had about 15 in two years blow up.

Why? Because the oil we use isn't doing the job that only that specific Castrol oil can do. Doesn't matter if you fork out for the best Fuchs or Motul, it will still be the same result.

Still don't believe me... well look for your self at how different the oils are, EVEN THOUGH the are the same weight...

Brand VI Flash Pour % ash %zinc

20W-50
AMSOIL* 151 507 -45
AMSOIL Series 2000* 155 474 -47
Castrol GTX* 122 440 -15 .85 .12
Castrol Syntec Blend* 135 440 -17 .105
Chevron Supreme* 140 428 -17 <1
Exxon High Performance 119 419 -13 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 125 465 -30 1.0
Kendall GT-1 129 390 -25 1.0 .16
Pennzoil GT Perf. 120 460 -10 .9
Quaker State Perf.* 121 440 -20
Quaker State Motorcycle 140 440 -25
Red Line 150 503 -49
Shell Fire and Ice* 126 450 -10 .9 .12
Shell Truck Guard* 130 450 -15 1.0 .12
Spectro Golden 4 174 440 -35 .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 174 440 -35 .13
Ultra Chem 190 455 -34
Unocal 121 432 -11 .74 .12
Valvoline All Climate 125 430 -10 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 140 440 -10 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 140 425 -10 1.2 .20
Valvoline DuraBlend 126 455 -17 <1.5 .125
Valvoline Synthetic 146 465 -40 <1.5 .12
15W-50
Mobil 1 170 470 -55
Mystic JT8 144 420 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 152 503 -49
5W-50
Castrol Syntec* 175 465 <-54 .102
Chevron Supreme* 175 460 -38 1.45
Quaker State Synquest* 175 460 -50
Pennzoil Performax 176 -69
5W-40
Havoline 170 450 -40 1.4
15W-40
AMSOIL* 165 462 -49
Castrol 134 415 -15 1.3 .14
Chevron Delo 400* 134 424 -38 <1
Exxon XD3 417 -11 .9 .14
Exxon XD3 Extra 135 399 -11 .95 .13
Kendall GT-1 135 410 -25 1.0 .16
Mystic JT8 142 440 -20 1.7 .15
Quaker State* 129 420 -25
Quaker State HDX* 146 440 -30 .97
Quaker State HDX Plus* 148 420 -25 1.37
Red Line 149 495 -40
Shell Rotella w/XLA* 146 414 -32 1.0 .12
Valvoline All Fleet 140 -10 1.0 .15
Valvoline DuraBlend 137 450 -17 <1.5 .125
Valvoline Turbo 140 420 -10 .99 .13
10W-30
AMSOIL* 171 464 -54
Castrol GTX* 143 415 -32 1.07 .12
Castrol Syntec Blend* 138 415 -33 .105
Castrol Syntec* 157 455 <-54 .102
Chevron Supreme* 150 419 -27 <1
Exxon Superflo Hi Perf 135 392 -22 .70 .11
Exxon Superflo Supreme 133 400 -31 .85 .13
Havoline Formula 3 139 430 -30 1.0
Kendall GT-1 139 390 -25 1.0 .16
Mobil 1 160 450 -65
Pennzoil PLZ Turbo 140 410 -27 1.0
Quaker State* 140 410 -30 .9
Quaker State 4x4* 135 430 -35
Red Line 139 475 -40
Shell Fire and Ice* 155 410 -35 .9 .12
Shell Rotella w/XLA* 155 405 -37 1.0 .12
Shell Truck Guard* 155 405 -35 1.0 .12
Spectro Golden M.G. 175 405 -40
Unocal Super 153 428 -33 .92 .12
Valvoline All Climate 130 410 -26 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 135 410 -26 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 130 410 -26 1.2 .20
Valvoline DuraBlend 142 440 -27 <1.5 .125
Valvoline Synthetic 140 450 -40 <1.5 .12
5W-30
AMSOIL* 186 478 -67
Castrol GTX* 160 410 -35 1.35 .12
Chevron Supreme* 167 410 -38 <1
Chevron Supreme Synt.* 169 468 -49
Exxon Superflow HP 148 392 -22 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 158 420 -40 1.0
Mobil 1 165 445 -65
Mystic JT8 161 390 -25 .95 .1
Quaker State* 155 405 -35
Quaker State Synquest* 168 450 -58
Red Line 151 455 -49
Shell Fire and Ice* 167 405 -35 .9 .12
Unocal 151 414 -33 .81 .12
Valvoline All Climate 135 405 -40 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 158 405 -40 .99 .13
Valvoline DuraBlend 162 415 -38 <1.5 .125
Valvoline Synthetic 160 435 -40 <1.5 .12

Now, HOPEFULLY, thats enough writing to hammer home the point that the oil to use is the one specified by the person who built the engine. Either the manufacturer or a highly reputable race engine builder. If you had your engine reconditioned by a repair/mechanic workshop, and genuine parts were used throughout, don't let them specify an oil, use the genuine one. Only if it is a specially designed race engine with different clearances let them specify a different oil.

WOW... and we have only covered a little bit of this subject...

Now that we understand this, we can say that the noise may be the contact of metal to metal due to the weight being too light.

Again, this is a hard problem, and I normally hear it on worn out engines where the piston is slapping around, but it may be the above.


Like I said about my dealership though, some places are dodge, so you almost never know what actually was used.. sorry for the bad news. It doesn't matter how reputable the place looks on the outside, hell, the King of Spain could meet and greet you at the door, but when the car goes into the workshop, everything changes.


Oh, lets touch on the view some people have about fixing an oil leak or worn out engine by putting thicker oil in it.

Ok, lets say you have cancer... your symptoms are that your are in heaps of pain and have no energy.
Well by the above thinking we can FIX it by giving you heaps of Morphine and Speed, because then you'll be acting like normal and wont have the symptoms any more. See where I'm going with this..

If an engine is leaking oil or worn out, you fix it while it CAN be fixed. It's not that bad, as I know some people say "it's cheaper and easier to put thicker oil in it.."

Well this just leads to the engine wearing out even quicker than before, leaving you, eventually, with a throw away engine.

If the overhaul or repair is done when these problems present themselves, not only do you save yourself the cost of buying an entire second-hand engine AND installing it, leaving you with another worn, second-hand engine, but you can have a new engine, that runs like new, thats cheaper and quicker to fix, costs less running it...... etc. etc.



Lastly, someone said, if you change from a 10w to a 15w, its doesn't matter and you can't feel anything, maybe 0.5kw on the dyno...

Well, I ask you, if you could choose to have your engine run properly, why choose otherwise?


I think that can be the though to leave on...


Thanks, you've been a great audience



I'll post up all of the workshop photos I have too... somewhere on here, of all the F430's, 360's, a $2,000,000 Lambo with its guts ripped out etc.

Maybe on this thread for fun

[EK4R]

nice read .

what bout checking your oil. whats the proper steps. let it sit overnight and check it? or warm it up , let it cool then check it?

[Black_DC5_R]

Check it cold and after it has been sitting there for at least an hour. Make sure it is NOT over the full mark. Just above the MIN mark is a good aiming point, but the more that you can put in before the MAX mark, the better, as this will allow the oil to dissipate more latent heat from your engine.



As this is my first post on here, I would appreciate it if you would take the time to rate myself and this thread so I can see if articles like this interest everyone on this forum. Thanks.

[Hullabaloo]

Nice write up. I dunno about everyone else but I enjoy reading stuff like this.

Its REALLY easy to answer both the weight AND type of oil to use... grab your owners manual and look up what type is specified by Honda. ONLY USE THIS!

Owners manuals usually specify a range of weights useable. FEO used in dealerships is 10W-30 here in Australia. What are your thoughts on using oils one step either side, eg 5W-30, 10W-40, etc?

[Zdster]

Wait, you mean "oils aint oils?"

[Black_DC5_R]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I wouldn't mind if someone hit me up with a PQ point though lol

As for the question:

I would never use anything other than what Honda recommend, which is pretty much their 10W-30.

If there are problems with the engine, in which an oil either side of this must be used, find the problem and fix it. The problem will only get exponentially worse if a band-aid fix is used.

[markoJEK1]

Check it cold and after it has been sitting there for at least an hour. Make sure it is NOT over the full mark. Just above the MIN mark is a good aiming point, but the more that you can put in before the MAX mark, the better, as this will allow the oil to dissipate more latent heat from your engine.



As this is my first post on here, I would appreciate it if you would take the time to rate myself and this thread so I can see if articles like this interest everyone on this forum. Thanks.

You mean continue filling it until its full ie on the dot, after been its sitting in garage for a good number of hours to be completely cold? really good read too

[Black_DC5_R]

No no no, check it cold and after sitting there for a while as a routine check every couple of weeks.

When filling the car with oil:

For example, if the engine requires 5L of oil, fill it up with around 4L, then start the engine and leave it running for around 30 seconds. This will give the engine a chance to pump the oil through all of the galleries and most importantly, to fill the empty, new oil filter. Then turn the engine off, get a rag, pull the dip stick out, wipe it clean, then push it back in and pull it out to check the level. Add more oil and check the stick, after cleaning it again, until you are close enough to the MAX line, but don't exceed it.

[ek4-guy]

whats ur thoughts on caster based oils?

[Black_DC5_R]

P.S. I didn't explain about Pour Point, which is listed above and answers the question about the various weights listed in the Owner's Manual. The different weights are specified due to all of the different climates. If you live somewhere where snow and ice are a daily occurrence, then the oil must be different in order to not freeze, compared to someone living in the desert. The Pour Point of the oil must be right so that at the temperature when cold, it is still able to flow.

[beeza]

"Its like having a supermodel wife and deciding to do the plastic surgery yourself."

Noice

[Black_DC5_R]

As for my thoughts on different types of oil, again, they can only be good if used for an engine DESIGNED to use that type.

Any oil, no matter if it is used in F1 or costs $1,000,000 a Liter, is worse than the oil recommended for you engine.

And again, this will only change if the engine is REDESIGNED by a race engine builder to have, for example, different clearances.