APEXI POWER FC - Knock / Detonation Issue - How to tune fix? **CLOSED**

[IV73CI]

Hi Folks,

Engine: B16A2
ECU: Apexi PFC
Map: B16B (preloaded)
Injectors: OEM
Ignition: OEM
Fuel: Vortex98ron
Fuel Pressure: 43psi (thanks to the SARD FPR).
Current Mods: I/H/E/FPR

Future: DW 500cc Injectors/snail/walhbros

After completing the 30min idle self learn according to the apexi manual.
-car idles smoothly at 850rpm
-car starts without any CEL codes

PROBLEM
Once i start revving above 3500rpm on neutral (slow rev)
- Knock levels goes past 50
- Throws a CEL code @ 0.1secs flashes 3 times (so then i release the pedal)

Then i try a hard rev once it passes 3500rpm on neutral
- Knock levels passes 50 again
- Throws a CEL code @ 0.1secs flashes 3 times and keeps flashing until the rpm drops back below 3500rpm.

On idle the Ignition timing shows 14 to 16 on the commander (gradually increases as the revs goes up).

All current injector duty cycles shows 100% with 0.00ms latency for all 4 OEM injectors.

Ok so its obvious that its detonating/knocking - are there anyways to drop the IGN or INJ settings in the commander?

NB: The IGN/INJ settings on the commander - is a temp only solution which allows you to ghost the timing/injector on all map curves - Advance or Retard. But once the engine is switched off it looses the memory as its only ghosting.

is there any settings/data values i could try to set on the commander prior to driving the car safely to a tuner without the engine knocking/detonating?

I dont believe that any adjustments or alterations has been done to the dizzy / crank angle timing. So this should be OEM stock settings.

Cant tow the car as its going to cost me a fair amount of $$$, so in the interim, i need to sort out what is causing the detonation.

NB: I dont have access to the OEM P2T ecu no more, or a timing gun, so this is method is ruled out.

***Ill try and take a picture of a 8channel monitor view of what the commander is monitoring real time"***


Any help would be great!

Thanks to Adrian for helping me out with the injector values.

[hisoka]

are you sure your knock sensor is not faulty.

i had this issue with another car, and it was annoying because when it was sensing knock , it throws it into limp mode with the ecu i was running,

using another knock sensor , noticed it wasn't knocking, it was just my stock knock sensor pooing its pants.



also i dont think your injectors are safe running at 100 percent dc


have you thrown the car on the dyno yet

[IV73CI]

are you sure your knock sensor is not faulty.

i had this issue with another car, and it was annoying because when it was sensing knock , it throws it into limp mode with the ecu i was running,

using another knock sensor , noticed it wasn't knocking, it was just my stock knock sensor pooing its pants.

also i dont think your injectors are safe running at 100 percent dc

have you thrown the car on the dyno yet

when i still had the OEM P2T ecu, it has never thrown any CEL codes nor went into limbo mode.

hence - why i believe the knock sensor is still working.

You could be correct with the injectors running @ 100% dc, with no latency, - i will be looking into lowering the DC tonight and see if this still throws the CEL code/knock

As per Apexi manual -

"Things such as airflow meter max value, injector max duty, excessive knock will cause the engine warning to flash. Usually the engine flash is in a sequence of 3 flashes each 0.1 seconds apart for knock levels and 0.5secs for Injectors maxing out."

so in this scenario im being thrown a 0.1secs with 3 flashes = knocking.

Plus i dont think it would be the injectors maxing out as apparently the OEM B16A injectors are capable of withstanding of 330hp before maxing out.

And no i havent taken it to a tuner yet as i cant drive the car with excessive knock 50+.

On the commander - sensor checks - there are no flashing or faulty sensors = can rule this out.

thanks for your input,

any more suggestions ppl?

[TODA AU]

Have you disabled the idle ignition control & got ECU ignition timing (16deg) to agree with the engine?
Failing that retard the timing at the dissy till the knock level reduces so you can drive to the dyno.

[IV73CI]

Have you disabled the idle ignition control & got ECU ignition timing (16deg) to agree with the engine?
Failing that retard the timing at the dissy till know reduces so you can drive to the dyno.

How do you disable the Idle Ignition control on the commander?
I cant find anything on the manual on how to do the above...
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j110/z00mxracing/EM1%20-%20Project%20Evolve/Monitor.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j110/z00mxracing/EM1%20-%20Project%20Evolve/Settings-etc.jpghttp://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j110/z00mxracing/EM1%20-%20Project%20Evolve/Settingparameters.jpg

my Iginition timing is showing - 14-16deg (real time monitoring).

so should i try advancing or retarding the ignition deg values? o.O

[TODA AU]

ETC...
Original function settings..,.
Then turn the bottom one off :thumbsup:

[IV73CI]

ETC...
Original function settings..,.
Then turn the bottom one off :thumbsup:

found it,i switched it off by ensuring the + jap character was selected and the knock still went over 50.

I also played round with the ign/inj test and advanced the IGN Cor up by +1-5 showin 20+ timing deg and still knocked.

Tried lowering the deg by increaments of -1-5 and noticed the knock / cel illuminated @ 2500rpm with max knock of 80. This was fked up as it made it worse.

I lowered the inj DC to 85% for all 4 injectors but that didnt do a thing.

Below is a snapshot of the 8channel monitoring

as you can see - this is on IDLE and it clearly shows knocking levels already :(
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j110/z00mxracing/EM1%20-%20Project%20Evolve/photo4.jpg

running out of ideas.

[TODA AU]

Idle ignition control is just that. It has no effect ignition timing through the rev range.

[IV73CI]

Ok ..

Have tried to switch off the idle ign control in ECT and still knocked.

Could it also be that im running lean or too rich?

If lean increasing FP lets say 50psi would it help lower knock??

Ive noticed aswell dat during idle i hear a noise like a klunk noise here and there.. Its like someone throwing a brick in deep waters da sound it makes.. But its not backfiring nor blowing any smoke..

I havenot touched anything in the IGN or INJ map values as this will change the mapping completely...

:/

[nugget]

i was just wondering, since the B series runs a dizzy, doesnt the dizzy control the ignition. so no matter what number you put on the ign map in the power fc, it doesnt do anything.

??

i believe retarding the dizzy 1 or 2 degrees might lower the detonation a bit as Toda said.

[Limbo]

the PFC can adjust ignition also, but you need to set it to the setting of the dizzy position so it adjsut accordingly.

With the clunking noise sounds like you might be having some detonation
You may have to do the old fashioned way and retart the dizzy by listening and turning the dizzy slowly. Then just keep under very low revs to drive it to your tuner. (like what Adrian said)

Your injectors should b fine so long as you keep under boost.
I was gonna say you might just have a trigger happy knock sensor but if your hearing knocking that's not the issue then.

[IV73CI]

the PFC can adjust ignition also, but you need to set it to the setting of the dizzy position so it adjsut accordingly.

With the clunking noise sounds like you might be having some detonation
You may have to do the old fashioned way and retart the dizzy by listening and turning the dizzy slowly. Then just keep under very low revs to drive it to your tuner. (like what Adrian said)

Your injectors should b fine so long as you keep under boost.
I was gonna say you might just have a trigger happy knock sensor but if your hearing knocking that's not the issue then.

ok ..


so i will need a timing gun/light to check the timing deg on the crank pulley whilst adjusting the dizzy right? Physical timing adjustment.

so shall i try NEG or POS 16deg?

so what ever the commander spits out on the deg value may not be accurate as this is sensor based?

[IV73CI]

ok..

had no luck in checking/adjusting the timing ...as i had no chance in borrowing a timing light/gun. :(

didnt want to buy one since i may only use it once or twice....waste of money.

so ... anyone keen on having a look at my car's timing on this weekend? LOL ..

so i can finally sort the knocking issue and rule out the timing being off?

[IV73CI]

Updated - SOLVED.

Turns out the stupid OEM knock sensor was just too dam sensitive.

car was not knocking at all but was running a lil richer (due to FPR).

other than that - the fhker ran like a mofo on the dyno ... thanks to Benson @ BYP!

now to save up for a Full tune to unleash the potential!

thanks for all your help guys!

[hisoka]

lol yeah it happens, really annoying.

my one was exact same, so we just ruled it out as faulty like i said earlier.

power fc knock sensing with stock sensor is bit annoying, i had one on my previous car before this one, and it would read 100 knock just by cranking the car, but nothing after that.

then in my current car on nistune it would knock and fuk the timing into limp mode for a bit. really annoying on cold starts.

[IV73CI]

Tru dat ...

yeh my cold starts seems to be ok .. and knock occassionally dissapears after 4000rpm ...

check out the end results

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?157875-Project-Evolve-EM1-Apexi-PFC-B16B-Map-A-F-Ratio-Check-Power-Run-Dyno&p=3159895#post3159895

[nugget]

the PFC can adjust ignition also, but you need to set it to the setting of the dizzy position so it adjsut accordingly.

With the clunking noise sounds like you might be having some detonation
You may have to do the old fashioned way and retart the dizzy by listening and turning the dizzy slowly. Then just keep under very low revs to drive it to your tuner. (like what Adrian said)


Your injectors should b fine so long as you keep under boost.
I was gonna say you might just have a trigger happy knock sensor but if your hearing knocking that's not the issue then.


how do u set the ignition timing to the dizzy on the pfc?

[IV73CI]

how do u set the ignition timing to the dizzy on the pfc?

follow the below step.

1)
this is only a temp setting. once you turn off the ignition it will revert back to the orignally settings.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j110/z00mxracing/EM1%20-%20Project%20Evolve/TempIGNcorrection.jpg


2)
otherwise if you require a permanent ignition tune. then you will need the pfc connected to a tuning software e.g. FC DataLogit for a wide range of tuning values. otherwise it can also be done on the handset but you only get 8x8 map rather than the full 20x20.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j110/z00mxracing/EM1%20-%20Project%20Evolve/SettingIGN.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j110/z00mxracing/EM1%20-%20Project%20Evolve/SettingIGNa.jpg

[TODA AU]

how do u set the ignition timing to the dizzy on the pfc?

Go to ETC / function select
Turn off idle ignition control function (the bottom one)
Return to Monitor screen & confirm ECU output is 16deg @ idle
Then use timing light & set as normal (as you would with OEm ECU & pins jumper's)
Adjust dissy 12mm's to suit
Go back to ETC / function select
Turn idle ignition control back on again.

[IV73CI]

Go to ETC / function select
Turn off idle ignition control function (the bottom one)
Return to Monitor screen & confirm ECU output is 16deg @ idle
Then use timing light & set as normal (as you would with OEm ECU & pins jumper's)
Adjust dissy 12mm's to suit
Go back to ETC / function select
Turn idle ignition control back on again.

Thanks Adrian,

i did this, and ignition is dead set 15-17deg ..(mostly 16) at idle.

Got the car checked for the A/F ratio and seems to be just 1 or 2 points above normal. (rich).

but other than that, its not knocking.

[nugget]

Thanks IV73CI.

And TODA, as usual, thanks for the great info.

[IV73CI]

Thanks IV73CI.

And TODA, as usual, thanks for the great info.

+rep for the boyz?

LOL, :P

[IV73CI]

CLOSED ..

ended up with a Hondata :)