HID's

[94_Accord]

ey all, dont know if this is a re post but sorry if it is..

just wondering whether all HID kits are illegal if fitted as aftermarket and werent standard on the car. Also if only some are legal, which brightness would they be eg. 4300K, 6000K etc

appreciate any feedback

-Mike-

[DreadAngel]

HID are illegal if not fitted on the car as standard. If the HID did come as standard on your car then its alright. Brightness someone else can answer... I'm not quite sure...

[destrukshn]

illegal.
unless your head lights were designed for em, with head lights washers, and i'm pretty sure auto levelling adjusting head lights.
but overall, illegal period.

[Stoosh]

i heard if you have them that you need to have some kind of headlight washer?

[saxman]

ey all, dont know if this is a re post but sorry if it is..

just wondering whether all HID kits are illegal if fitted as aftermarket and werent standard on the car. Also if only some are legal, which brightness would they be eg. 4300K, 6000K etc

appreciate any feedback

-Mike-
drop in kits(what you're looking at on ebay, etc) are complete crap. Your headlights are designed for halogens. If you want hid's, and want to take advantage of the increased light output without putting everyone else at risk, the only good option is to retrofit in an oem projector unit. You'd use oem bulbs and ballasts with this, so you actually get decent quality. The stuff used in those hid kits are pure crap. Drop in hid's are illegal just about everywhere, so the companies that make quality parts have absolutely no reason to make them. If it isn't a d2s or similar style bulb(d1s, d1r, d2s, d2r, d4s, or d4r), chances are it's completely crap.

Color temp wise, 4300k is ideal. Once you start moving up or down from there, light output sucks. Going bluer(higher temp) gets to the point where it's pretty much useless as light output.

If you want more info on how to do it right, check out hidplanet.com/forums


I can't say how to make them legal in australia... I can say how to make them actually useful and how to enjoy the benefits that come with hid bulbs

[Fr3aKi3]

As mentioned by others, HID's are illegal on cars which don't have them as standard since they don't have washer jets and an auto levelling system.

Most cars which are fitted with HID's from factory are rated at roughly 4300k, this provides a clean white light. Anything higher than that equates to more colour but less light output which means less visibility and a greater strain on your eyes.

Have a look at these threads for more info about HID's:
Retrofitting HID's (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40272&page=1&highlight=light+bulbs) - If you are going to get HID's then at least do it properly, which is to get projectors since this provides better control over the light dispersion which is better for everyone else on the road!

General info on HID's (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42987&highlight=hid) Has some good general info and links to some more detailed info

[saxman]

Retrofitting HID's (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40272&page=1&highlight=light+bulbs) - If you are going to get HID's then at least do it properly, which is to get projectors since this provides better control over the light dispersion which is better for everyone else on the road!

good thread

[simbadda54]

just get some cool halos with projectors :D

[Fr3aKi3]

good thread

lol.... that's because it's yours!!! :p
Good write up though, will definitely be trying my hands at a retrofit when i get enough funds and have the time to do it.



just get some cool halos with projectors :D
and have poor visibility....

[bungsai]

drop in kits(what you're looking at on ebay, etc) are complete crap. Your headlights are designed for halogens. If you want hid's, and want to take advantage of the increased light output without putting everyone else at risk, the only good option is to retrofit in an oem projector unit. You'd use oem bulbs and ballasts with this, so you actually get decent quality. The stuff used in those hid kits are pure crap. Drop in hid's are illegal just about everywhere, so the companies that make quality parts have absolutely no reason to make them. If it isn't a d2s or similar style bulb(d1s, d1r, d2s, d2r, d4s, or d4r), chances are it's completely crap.

Color temp wise, 4300k is ideal. Once you start moving up or down from there, light output sucks. Going bluer(higher temp) gets to the point where it's pretty much useless as light output.

If you want more info on how to do it right, check out hidplanet.com/forums


I can't say how to make them legal in australia... I can say how to make them actually useful and how to enjoy the benefits that come with hid bulbs

what saxman is saying is pretty much true, but im going to have to disagree with you on a few things...in the friendliest possible way...

a drop in kit can be really good, they can be merely normal HID kits from a bmer or merc etc with a rebased bulb. Really some of these kits are genuinly really good quality kits. That said in general, the ones you are going to get from ebay cost the traders $125 to get into the country and ar emade in china...and yes...are crap...

now you don't have to put it into an OEM HID designed projector, not ALWAYS is this the better option.

Example - Accord euro's blind me 10X more often than when i drive past a mazda with a drop in set of HID's, or a dc2. The cut off that some halogen projecters have is better designed than some of the HIDs equipped OEM cars out there...

Lastly, brightness wise 4300k is a nice white colour, with a tinge of yellow. Between 4100k and 4300k you are going to have the most useable light...~3200lumens (halogen is ~1200)...

but at 6.5k you still have ~2600-2700lumens at your disposal, more then twice a normal halogen.

at 8k you have around 2200-2300 Lumens stil almost double a normal halogen.

thus light output doesn't necessarily suck, but you are not getting the most out of ure HID's.

BTW, there is NO way to make HID's legal here in Australia on Non OEM HID equipped vehicle, at the moment i am yet to hear of a case where anyone as been able to get them engineered.

That said, stay 6k or below and the cops will probably leave you along. Either way, its an easy defect to clear.

alos, having a halo around a projector wont change light output at all..

my 2c

[jamchen]

but i still think its a good idea to retrofit headlights to projectors before u putting HIDs....
the reason been, projectors give u a clear top cut-off line where as reflectors are not as good as projectors in terms to eliminating top-bite lights...
and since HID's are strong in light output, keep using reflectors w/HID may result in ur lights been flash direct through into the car in front.

this is even a larger issue for 4WDs... i've seen Prados with HIDs.. and let me tell u... they are street killers!!!! u r basically blind if they r behind u...

that's why my MDX has been retrofitted to projectors ( note projectors are standard on US specs) and installed 5000k HID and so far i am fine!
been breath tested few times and no questions asked..

[kongfu]

As long as HID is not that blue it should be legal. You will get defect if your HID kit is too blue like 8000k above.

[94_Accord]

hmm thanks a bunch for the info given guys i really appreciate it..
i might just go autobarn and buy some phillips halogen bulbs.. lol
but yeh thanks once again. anyone recommend which bulbs to get if i stear clear of HIDs

[EuroDude]

Yeah get the Phillips BlueVisions - they are pretty much the closest thing you can get to HID, i.e. they are bright white, with a tinge of blue projected around the sides (mostly the top). ~$60

Forget about the crap/cheap halogens they sell at KMart and Auto shops...

[bungsai]

imho, wait, and get HID's, get some projectors (as long as ure not putting HID's into those reflectors)

worth every cent. $60 bucks for blue visions aint worth it. thats $60 bucks towards the conversion.

[jamchen]

there are a lot of aftermarket projector style headlight units on ebay... they are reasonable cheap..
for example: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/HONDA-ACCORD-94-97-DUAL-ANGEL-EYE-PROJECTOR-HEAD-LIGHT_W0QQitemZ8070867805QQcategoryZ6775QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
and http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/C-94-97-HONDA-ACCORD-DUAL-HALO-PROJECTOR-HEADLIGHTS-95_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33710QQitemZ80715747 60QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD2V

[destrukshn]

there are a lot of aftermarket projector style headlight units on ebay... they are reasonable cheap..
for example: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/HONDA-ACCORD-94-97-DUAL-ANGEL-EYE-PROJECTOR-HEAD-LIGHT_W0QQitemZ8070867805QQcategoryZ6775QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
and http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/C-94-97-HONDA-ACCORD-DUAL-HALO-PROJECTOR-HEADLIGHTS-95_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33710QQitemZ80715747 60QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD2V
you have to be careful sometimes when using these headlights, some don't allow hids to be used, it may actually melt the housing/light.
seen it happen before.

[underc35a]

If you decide to get hid then do retrofit if you plan to stay with halogen then just make sure you do not get any bulb that is colour coated, always buy bulbs with clear glass, European Osram Silverstars are prefered.

[JaCe]

Sorry to be a bother but I got these from Autojoy a couple of wks ago and was wondering if they're illegal... the guy told me that these ones are legal and he installed them in my Civic for me.

http://img310.imageshack.us/img310/4296/miramaxlightlarge0ni.th.jpg (http://img310.imageshack.us/my.php?image=miramaxlightlarge0ni.jpg)

In case you can't read the photo, here's what it says
Miracle White
9006 55W > 100W
autojoy

MiraMax
Miracle Color, Maximum Light
4200K
Special Halogen Bulb
Patent special filament design

... and they look a tinge blue, but not really noticable since it's concealed behind something else anyway.

NB. The lights inside the box are my original stock Honda ones... didn't have anywhere else to put them.

[bungsai]

you have to be careful sometimes when using these headlights, some don't allow hids to be used, it may actually melt the housing/light.
seen it happen before.

HID's run cooler than Halogens. Maybe they were even too crappy to handle halogens.

[DOHCTR Coopz!]

JaCe: i think u'll be sweet with those.. they're only bulbs! my bulbs are like 5,200k & never have any problems with the 5-0!
how much did u get them for?
and curious, what country is it made in??

[bungsai]

Snip

jace, i do not think your bulbs are 'legal', due to ADR (australian design rule/regulations?)...basically, they may be imported from China or Japan or whatever but not necessarily legal for use in australia...that said, i do not think you are going to have ANY trouble from the police.

Also, note the Kelvin rating is 4200K. Phillips Blue Visions are legal and are 4000K, whilst the Crystal Visions are not at 4300K. In fact, i am not 100% sure, but i have not come across a bulb with a higher rating thatn 4000K that was adr approved for street use.

but don't worry, you'll b fine :)

[saxman]

a drop in kit can be really good, they can be merely normal HID kits from a bmer or merc etc with a rebased bulb. Really some of these kits are genuinly really good quality kits. That said in general, the ones you are going to get from ebay cost the traders $125 to get into the country and ar emade in china...and yes...are crap...
it's more than just the bulb. while there may be one or two out there, very few use high quality ballasts with the lights. It's just not feasible for them cost wise to still have them be competitive. Point is to just stay away from 'em



now you don't have to put it into an OEM HID designed projector, not ALWAYS is this the better option.

Example - Accord euro's blind me 10X more often than when i drive past a mazda with a drop in set of HID's, or a dc2. The cut off that some halogen projecters have is better designed than some of the HIDs equipped OEM cars out there...

I'll agree with this somewhat... there are some certain considerations to take in though. For example, that accord euro could simply have his lights aimed too high. The accord euro projectors are very nice units, and don't cast any upward glare. Also worth considering that the headlights are just physically higher up, which means, especially with an improper aim(you'd be surprised how many cars come from the factory improperly aimed), that you'll get blinded. The projectors in the accord euro are so far vastly superior to dc2 ones(and all of the mazda halogen projectors that I'm aware of) that it's really not funny.

there are a lot of aftermarket projector style headlight units on ebay... they are reasonable cheap..
for example: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/HONDA-ACCORD-94-97-DUAL-ANGEL-EYE-PROJECTOR-HEAD-LIGHT_W0QQitemZ8070867805QQcategoryZ6775QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
and http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/C-94-97-HONDA-ACCORD-DUAL-HALO-PROJECTOR-HEADLIGHTS-95_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33710QQitemZ80715747 60QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD2V
these lights tend to use extremeley poor quality projectors. The cut off is very bad, the light output is absolutely pathetic, etc. These are not to be compared to oem projectors. That's like comparing a ferrari and a 1980's toyota camry at the track and saying "but they're both cars"

Also, those cheap ebay projectors almost always use H3 bulbs, which are meant for fog lights. They don't put out much light(to the point where installing those projectors is likely to output a good bit less light than your stock headlights) and they don't put out much heat(why some people have issues with the headlight melting with hids in them).


If you decide to get hid then do retrofit if you plan to stay with halogen then just make sure you do not get any bulb that is colour coated, always buy bulbs with clear glass, European Osram Silverstars are prefered.

yes! the European Osram Silverstars are one of, if not the, best halogen bulbs available for light output, etc. If these are available, use them... if it's light output you're concerned with.


but i still think its a good idea to retrofit headlights to projectors before u putting HIDs....
the reason been, projectors give u a clear top cut-off line where as reflectors are not as good as projectors in terms to eliminating top-bite lights...
and since HID's are strong in light output, keep using reflectors w/HID may result in ur lights been flash direct through into the car in front.

this is even a larger issue for 4WDs... i've seen Prados with HIDs.. and let me tell u... they are street killers!!!! u r basically blind if they r behind u...

that's why my MDX has been retrofitted to projectors ( note projectors are standard on US specs) and installed 5000k HID and so far i am fine!
been breath tested few times and no questions asked..


stock reflectors are designed to throw some light upward. This is for lighting up street signs, etc. When you put in hids with much higher light output, the light goes up, but because it's so much more intense, blinds everyone. But there are a lot more reasons to use projectors than just that. They are so much better at focusing the light. With reflectors, you'll get a nice little splotch of light in front of you, with projectors, you get a nice wide beam, that illuminates everything around. Go park in front of a wall and tell me you can light things up like this:
http://img274.echo.cx/img274/4255/pix103ej.jpg

unfortunatel, suv's do have the issue of the headlights just being so high that with hid's, they're bound to be blinding to someone. The light has to angle down a bit, coming out of the headlight, but it's not at that steep of an angle. On a car like mine, where the headlight is two feet off the ground, I'm far less likely to blind someone than an suv whose lights are 4 feet off the ground.

As for the mdx... here in the us, they come stock with projectors now, however, they're halogen projectors. That said, the mdx halogen projectors are WONDERFUL units, and with a bit of preperation, will take d2s hid bulbs very well. I have two pairs of them for doing retrofits and such. They're wonderful projectors.

jamchen, out of curiosity, are you using d2s bulbs, or a rebased h11 bulb?(assuming you're using the mdx projectors)

[jamchen]

saxman, impressive! nice write up... i'd agree most of ur statements :D
Aussie spec MDX doesn't come standard with projectors even until now.. that's why i purchased a set of 04 MDX projector headlights off ebay and they arrived mintly after 2 months of wait :S:S
yes i know that the MDX projectors are designed for halogens originally... but they are actually fine with HIDs after seeing few examples from acuramdx.org so i attempted HID fit.
out reflectors used 9006 for low beam.. so i came with this problem of different sockets ( as H11 in the projectors).. and in that time i couldn't source any H11 harness to chop off the 9006 and rewire H11 sockets on...
so what i did was i purchased a 9006 HID and demanded they swap the bulbs for H11 spec.. and until now i didn't get any police questioning my HID :D
still looking for H11 harness now :P as the fear it won't pass vehicle test when the time we sell the car...

[saxman]

rallylights.com in the states should have everything you would need to make a 9006->H11 harness

worth mentioning that a lot of hid ballasts use a 9006 plug on the ballast itself.

If you'd like, I can provide some info on how to convert the mdx projectors to accept d2s bulbs. With the proper bulb spacing, you should get much better output(the mdx projectors with h11 bulbs tend to have decent width, but the intensity of light directly in front of the car is reduce due to improper focal length of the h11 hid bulbs. They work well, but can work much much better with properly spaced d2s bulbs)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/roymac/moddedmdx016.jpg With a little modding you can get much better ouput(rivaling that of the earlier mentioned accord euros), a nice sharp cut off, and some beautiful blue at the cut off.

[EuroDude]

That looks exactly like my Philips BlueVision halogens, with the blue cutoff and everything. Except the white light is more intense off course ;)

[saxman]

That looks exactly like my Philips BlueVision halogens, with the blue cutoff and everything. Except the white light is more intense off course ;)
lets see a pic?


the blue cut off is really a by product of the projector, not the bulb. It's perfectly possible to get a blue cut off with a halogen bulb, it's just not nearly as common.

[EuroDude]

Well yes my Euro does have projectors so they probably contribute to the blue cutoff. And yeah the BlueVisions have a special blue tint that mimicks HID, and looks virtually identical to that pic.
When the stock halogens were in the car, I didnt see any cut-off at all (in terms of color difference).

Its raining here at the moment so I cant take a pic right now, I'll post it later when its clear (may be a few days tho :( )

[underc35a]

lets see a pic?

I would like to see the pic as well, im surprised a stock projector can give out that much colour, you get that thick band of blue colour after colour modding the projector. I've seen in real life a colour modded s2k projector and the colour is amazing!

[EuroDude]

Had a quick look then with the car one meter away from the garage and there was only a tiny bit of blue. But in traffic when the car is say 10 meters away, the blue cutoff is clearly visible.

So basically the longer the light travels, the bluer the cutoff for the BueVisions.
I'll try to get a pic of a long distance shot when its not raining.

[saxman]

Well yes my Euro does have projectors so they probably contribute to the blue cutoff. And yeah the BlueVisions have a special blue tint that mimicks HID, and looks virtually identical to that pic.
When the stock halogens were in the car, I didnt see any cut-off at all.

Its raining here at the moment so I cant take a pic right now, I'll post it later when its clear (may be a few days tho :( )
no cut off at all, or no color at the cut off?

only reason you wouldn't have seen a cut off at all is if the bulbs weren't seated properly.

do you realize that blue tint on the bulb does a great job of reducing the light output of the bulbs?

and just for reference, that picture is the light output of one bulb/projector

[saxman]

Had a quick look then with the car one meter away from the garage and there was only a tiny bit of blue. But in traffic when the car is say 10 meters away, the blue cutoff is clearly visible.

So basically the longer the light travels, the bluer the cutoff for the BueVisions.
I'll try to get a pic of a long distance shot when its not raining.
this is typical of projectors in general... the blue generally doesn't show up until you get at least 10-15 feet away... with it only a meter from the wall, doesn't surprise me at all you wouldn't get any color.

[EuroDude]

no cut off at all, or no color at the cut off?

only reason you wouldn't have seen a cut off at all is if the bulbs weren't seated properly.

do you realize that blue tint on the bulb does a great job of reducing the light output of the bulbs?

and just for reference, that picture is the light output of one bulb/projector


Sorry yeah I meant color cut-off. The stock bulbs were just shades of off-white (yellow).

I realise the tint decreases the brightness, and obviously HID bulbs are considerably brighter.

With that pic above, if you decrease teh overall brightness, it would look similar to the blue visions. i.e. basically the same blue cut-off.

[saxman]

what kind of bulbs do the euro projectors use? the tsx only comes with hid's over here... I'm curious as to what projectors the halogen ones use.

[EuroDude]

They take H1 halogens.

Here's a pic of the Euro (non Luxury) healights:

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8541/image14ii.jpg


I guess its possible the Luxury Euros (HID) use the same headlight assembly... not sure though.

[saxman]

is teh clear corner like that standard? ours have an amber piece there... otherwise looks the same

[EuroDude]

Its standard on the Euro's. Yeah Ive noticed the TSX's have the indicators on the side instead. Ive always wandered why Acura changed it (assuming the Japanes/Eurpoean Euro's are the same as the Aus Euro).

[JaCe]

JaCe: i think u'll be sweet with those.. they're only bulbs! my bulbs are like 5,200k & never have any problems with the 5-0!
how much did u get them for?
and curious, what country is it made in??

They were $45.00aud from Autojoy (Castle Hill). It's probably a bit expensive because I've seen cheaper stuff at other shops (eg. that one in Hornsby) but the guy at Autojoy offered to do the install for me (which took half an hour or so?) for no extra charge. Not sure if you guys have experienced this, but damn the Civic is hard to change the bulbs (in comparison to say a normal car like my father's old Mazda 626 where you just, stick your hand there, pull it out, and put the new one in).


jace, i do not think your bulbs are 'legal', due to ADR (australian design rule/regulations?)...basically, they may be imported from China or Japan or whatever but not necessarily legal for use in australia...that said, i do not think you are going to have ANY trouble from the police.

Also, note the Kelvin rating is 4200K. Phillips Blue Visions are legal and are 4000K, whilst the Crystal Visions are not at 4300K. In fact, i am not 100% sure, but i have not come across a bulb with a higher rating thatn 4000K that was adr approved for street use.

but don't worry, you'll b fine :)

All I can say is that last line of your post was the only one which really means anything to my simpleton mind :) Thanks for the advice though. May I ask why you think I won't have any trouble with the police? I'm inclined to think it's because frankly, they aren't really that bright, and for them to look blue, you either have to go really really close, or look from really really far away (where it reflects off the other things inside the headlight module?).

[Fr3aKi3]

Eurodude - The Euro luxury assembly looks identical to the standard Euro's. I don't think that amber part (the parker) of the US Euro's are actually indicators, they're just parkers but are amber instead. Not sure why that is but i've seen it on a lot of american cars, parkers are amber. Maybe Saxman can provide some more insight in regards to this.

Saxman - Aus delivered Euro's have a yellow parker (similar in colour to a normal halogen bulb), it's not so much clear as it's more frosted.

[EuroDude]

Really? Orange parking lights? Wouldnt you get confused driving at night seeing all these orange lights lit up, thinking people are about to merge everywhere?

Actually Volvo's have them already - the only cars in Aus with fulltime orange lights.

[saxman]

with out cars, when you turn the headlights on, you have the headlights,a nd then the amber corner lights on as well. When merging/turning on streets, indicating causes the amber corners to flash brighter. Nobody ever drives around with just the parking lights on.

I don't know for sure if the amber part on our tsx lights are indicators, or just reflectors or what, but we do have a stock indicator in the same position as you.

[Fr3aKi3]

Actually Volvo's have them already - the only cars in Aus with fulltime orange lights.

I think that's what they refer to as DRL - Day Running Lights. Basically just lights for use during the day so thats other motorist are aware of the car's presence

[EuroDude]

Yeah I find them dangerous as it can cause people to panic if they notice it for a split second thinking someone is about to merge into you. Orange should be reserved for merging only IMO.

[civiceg9]

Sorry to be a bother but I got these from Autojoy a couple of wks ago and was wondering if they're illegal... the guy told me that these ones are legal and he installed them in my Civic for me.

http://img310.imageshack.us/img310/4296/miramaxlightlarge0ni.th.jpg (http://img310.imageshack.us/my.php?image=miramaxlightlarge0ni.jpg)

In case you can't read the photo, here's what it says
Miracle White
9006 55W > 100W
autojoy

MiraMax
Miracle Color, Maximum Light
4200K
Special Halogen Bulb
Patent special filament design

... and they look a tinge blue, but not really noticable since it's concealed behind something else anyway.

NB. The lights inside the box are my original stock Honda ones... didn't have anywhere else to put them.

4200k is just the same as a normal halogen really, anything that come out blue is not legal. Legal is more of a yellow/white. I would not recommand anything more then white.

as for HID, u will need a sheild to make it only project the lights upwards in the light housing and on to the ground. The topics been cover, just do a search.

[bungsai]

Really? Orange parking lights? Wouldnt you get confused driving at night seeing all these orange lights lit up, thinking people are about to merge everywhere?

Actually Volvo's have them already - the only cars in Aus with fulltime orange lights.

just to be an annoying mofo, bmw 7 series and 5 series have them too i think.

[underc35a]

with out cars, when you turn the headlights on, you have the headlights,a nd then the amber corner lights on as well. When merging/turning on streets, indicating causes the amber corners to flash brighter. Nobody ever drives around with just the parking lights on.

I don't know for sure if the amber part on our tsx lights are indicators, or just reflectors or what, but we do have a stock indicator in the same position as you.

this is correct just like the honda legend, otherwise known as the acura 3.5RL, the RL have front position lights that are 1157 (dual filament) which are amber when the headlights are turned on and flash brighter when indicating. The RL does not have side indicators (on the front fenders) whilst the Legend does, this is the reason why Acuras have the side indicators integrated into the side of the headlight units.

[saxman]

4200k is just the same as a normal halogen really
halogen light is normally about 3500k or so... 4200k is about the color of brand new stock hid's

[JaCe]

DRLs on the BMW? I didn't know that... can anyone confirm?

Thanks for the advice about the lights. I guess I'm not really concerned because the blue bit of the bulb isn't visible unless you're actually staring at it up close (and the car's lights are off and at rest), or so far away (when the car is parked and lights off) that you can see a bit of the reflection a tinge of blue.