pistons

[moreboost]

hi i need oversized (20 thou) pistons and rods for a f22b vtec turbo, to handle bout 25 psi boost if anyone can help that would be great, although i would prefer to buy of a shelf (but i dont think that will be possable,) i will get them custom made if i have to....Thanks guys

[Slow96GSR]

Do you mind shipping? If not get some SRP, JE, or CP. There are about 20 other companies you can get pistons from too. See my sig for the links to some, or go to the bigger list to see more. It's 3:30 am here so I am to tired to type links.

[saxman]

asking for them to hold a psi rating is completely arbitrary. 25 psi will vary a lot depending on turbo selection. What kind of power are you after?

[TODA AU]

hi i need oversized (20 thou) pistons and rods for a f22b vtec turbo, to handle bout 25 psi boost if anyone can help that would be great, although i would prefer to buy of a shelf (but i dont think that will be possable,) i will get them custom made if i have to....Thanks guys

Use a Mahle piston. (The piston you want is a shelf item)
If you use the pistons from any other manufacturer, you will need to resleave the block. Don't get talked into this unless that's what you want.
PM me if you get stuck & need a set.

[Slow96GSR]

SRP, CP, and JE have the same size on their shelf, as long as it's not back ordered. Thus why I suggested it. I am sure you can get these down there too. Mahle is a good piston too. Also .020" won't need to be sleeved, IDK where you got that idea. I wouldn't go with an .080" on stock sleeves, maybe even a .040" is pushing it. I ran just fine on .020" pistons on stock sleeves and I know many who are doing just fine too.

JE (http://www.jepistons.com/cat/je/sport/honda/h22a1_a4.shtml)

CP (http://www.cppistons.com/PDFs/Sport%20Compact/SportCompactpdf.pdf)

Mahle on Summit (http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=mahle&N=700+115+4294907813&Ntk=KeywordSearch)

[moreboost]

thanks guys, i guess i was i bit vage in my discription, i got a 95 F22B vtec, 3'' exaust, t28 turbo(current, but changing to a t3) custom inlet manifold with a 78 mm throttle body im looking for anywhere over 200bhp, and yes i wanted to bore it, do valves,and a block brace, and whatever else i have time to do when i pull my engine out

[saxman]

why bother building the internals for only 200bhp?

[Slow96GSR]

Why do the block guard, Just sleeve it. If you look here (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56926) and it pretty much tells you what I think of block guards. It does come down to price and if anyone can do sleeving there. Also sleeves do allow for better cooling and more PSI from a boost kit. Also most people don't put the guards in right, they're spoused to go in 1/4" down from the top of the blocks deck and this allows for better cooling and the coolant to flow better.

From other sites:

http://www.preludepower.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1081046#post1081046
"they reinforce the sleeve. Its basically a metal gasket that is pressed into the coolant jackets at the top of an open deck block. I'd personally never use one because they cause hot spots and allow the cylinder walls to egg. They cause hot spots because with the block guard in place, there is a resistance to coolant flow causing the cylinder walls to get hotter which means its easier for them to warp. And its only the top of the cylinder wall that is reinforced."

http://www.thezcr.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15328
"sleeving is better, block gard have been known to restict coolant flow.

you could "Post" the block."

and

"ive heard nothing but bad things from blockguard
heard cases of blown headgaskets, crackin cylnder walls beneath,
overheating and etc.
no expeirence personaly tho.."

and

"Closed deck is really the ultimate and some block guards don't restrict coolant flow, but don't allow coolant to cool the top of the cylinder walls....where cooling is needed the most. It all really depends on the how much the guard contacts the cylinders water jacket."

[moreboost]

why bother building the internals for only 200bhp?

no i dont want ONLY 2oobhp i want OVER that i dont know the potential of this motor as ive not seen it done, im acually hoping for 400-500bhp or even more i was just asking the question for anywhre over 200.

[TODA AU]

not the case with the F22's, they have cast iron sleeves (not FRM) and so dont need to be resleeved with aftermarket pistons.
Sorry, my bad... I read H22 at a glance.

[Muzz]

I know this is completly and utterly off topic, but when i click on your name TODA AU, it dosnt allow me the option of sending you a message, where everyone else is fine, is this problem normal?
Maby you can just PM me?, i'd be so very thankful. i am just wanting to know, in your bang for buck thread for the civic/crx, u recomend a sleved block for a race engine. I am currently making plans for a track only engine, and am considering sleving the block. What are the advantages of sleving the block, how necisarry is it? does it make the engine more reliable? what problems can arise from not sleving the block for a race b18c?.
its quite a bit of extra money ill be looking at, and im not to sure where the benifits are, please help me!

thanks, id greatly value your responce!
Murrray

Edit: Saxman and slow96gsr, feel free to also offer me your opionions via PM reguarding sleaving a built NA b18c race engine, as i greatly value both of your experiance too!

[Slow96GSR]

Read through a few of the posts we have made. Here is one more specific on sleeves that is recent... http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56926

I'll find some other info.

[Muzz]

Read through a few of the posts we have made. Here is one more specific on sleeves that is recent... http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56926

I'll find some other info.

Thanks a heap slow96gsr:thumbsup: , the thing is, since im going NA, the motor will never see that much power anyway (im hoping around 200whp or so), so the purpose to the sleaves, if used in my case, would not be to handle lots of power.

Toda au, in his thread "bang for bucks - vtir civic/ crx" has listed a "toda sleaved engine block" in his list of mods for a high budget NA race engine, and i am unsure of what benifits having the block sleaved provides, apart from increasing the ability to handle big power (which isnt there without boost).


Race engine - Improved production car / drag - Use B18C engine as base
#1 – Hyper R or twin plate carbon clutch
#2 – Type R gearbox with cross gear kit
#3 – Lower final drive
#4 – Intake - Muiti throttle (Sports injection) or suitable alternative.
#5 – Header + cat-back system (65~70mm)
#6 – Ported head / Spec C camshafts / valve springs/ Titanium retainers / adjustable cam pulleys/ Hi power timing belt / oil pump gear / fuel pump / Forged pistons 12.5+:1 / TODA sleaved engine block / lightweight aftermarket rods / fuel pressure regulator / injectors / ECU / dyno tuning.
Power output: 156~162kw @ wheels (Dyno dynamics – shootout)

Im really interested to know as im currently making plans for a track only b18c race engine, and dont know where the benifit would be to sleave the block, since its not needed for this level of power.
i want to know if its somthing i should be doing?

[saxman]

part of the benefit of using a sleaved block in that situation is the ability to run a larger bore than you could safely run with stock and other fun with increasing displacement

[Slow96GSR]

Exactly, the boost is replaced with displacement. Just like a boosted Honda vs. a NA Chevy or Ford. They have the same power but it's all in the motor where as we tend to go more for a boosted motor. There are also other parts you have to look at like the bolt-ons. You need to do a lot of research to find what works well with what other parts.

[TODA AU]

I know this is completly and utterly off topic, but when i click on your name TODA AU, it dosnt allow me the option of sending you a message, where everyone else is fine, is this problem normal?
Maby you can just PM me?, i'd be so very thankful.

Hi Murray,

Sorry mate, I turned the PM thing off as it was just taking too long to answer the PM's & all the emails.
I should add no PM's, email only to my sig, as I only have limited time on the computer each day.
Re-sleaved block, we've got a B18C ready to go if you're interesed.
Not TODA though, it's DARTON to suit bore size from 81.00mm up to 85.00mm

Sleaving allows you to safely increase the bore size without compromising cylinder wall strength.
Cheers

Adrian

[Muzz]

cheers guys! thanks for that. unfortunatly i am unable to afford the block yet as i got some debts to pay, but ill definatly drop u an email adrian when ive got some money sorted to spend!

[online]

I have been talking to the boys at JE and CP and they both tell me that their pistons are fine without sleeving the block, i have done a few with great success and they are all off the shelf items. :thumbsup:

[Slow96GSR]

That's what I was saying like on the first page. Who ever said you HAVE to sleeve a block to use any piston in a Honda was wrong. We run plenty of OEM blocks with just about every piston made. Never HAD to resleeve unless it was too big of a bore. Mine was just fine with 20 over pistons from JE, what wasn't fine was the block guard.

[shecomb]

I have been talking to the boys at JE and CP and they both tell me that their pistons are fine without sleeving the block, i have done a few with great success and they are all off the shelf items. :thumbsup:


Does this apply to FRM sleeved blocks like the H-series motors also? I was under the impression that the FRM sleeves will not handle the additional friction from forged pistons.

[Muzz]

once again, i know this is completly of topic, but can you guys have a look at my plans for a track only race engine, and offer any constructive critism or advice for me. Engine is a b18c.

Head
Toda spec C camshafts and suitable springs
Valves and titanium retainers
Port and polish (maby looking into extrude honing, any thoughts?)
3 angle valve grind
Cam gears

block
lightweight rods
lightweight forged pistons (around 12.5:1, any thoughts/recomendations)
Stock cranck shaft (any thoughts on staying stock/disadvantages?)
Complete Bearing set

External
multipul throttle bodies - http://www.tweakit.net/shop/product_info.php?cPath=57_49_32&products_id=115&osCsid=36c10ae3dfbd5823b29a68777434f620 or toda - http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56922
Toda headers
Exhaust - undecided on brand
ECU - undecided on brand, looking at maby motec, any thoughts?
Oil gear
lower final drive
hi power timing belt
fuel pump, regulator, injectors.
Oil cooler.
Aftermarket radiator
low temp thermo fan switch
low temp thermostat
Lightweight flywheel + heavy duty clutch

Any thoughts on the above setup would be graetly appreciated, thanks.

[saxman]

for an ecu, you're going to want something that has the means to run a hybrid map/tps based fuel/timing maps. I know the aem ems can do that, I don't know if motec can(it's not really a common ecu in my part of the world).

[Slow96GSR]

Motec will be fine. It's not plug and play like the AEM EMS or chip the oem ecu, plug and play like the Hondata. I still like AEM EMS and Hondata best, but that's me. I heard it's hard to find someone to tune the AEM EMS down there, any truth to that?

http://www.motec.com/products/ecu/control.htm

[Muzz]

Any thoughts on using the stock crank for a race application? I hear there fine, plenty strong and well ballanced from factory???

[Slow96GSR]

I wouldn't care if it was balanced well from the factory. With what you are wanting to do I would balance everything. From the fly wheel to the crank pulley. The stock one will be fine though for the NA build you are doing. You can always upgrade if you want. The average cost for a rotating assembly is about $2300AUD, that's pistons (CP, JE, SRP, and a few others), rods (Eagle), crank (Eagle), rings, and beaings. So if you are going to spend $650+AUD on pistons, $525ish AUD on rods, $200AUD on rings and bearing then it's about $925AUD extra for a Eagle crank.

[Muzz]

Yeah makes alot of sence, for that price, probably the best way to go. I didnt realise u could get a whole package for that price, i had in my mind that a crank would set me back alot more:o
Cheers.
When you get a package like that, does it come ballanced or would you still need to have it ballanced?

[Slow96GSR]

They will balance the crank only. The pistons come from the manufacture of your choice and size so they don't have time to do the whole kit. It's not that hard. It's a good idea to check it after shipping anyways. Plus the flywheels and pulley are most likely not balanced to perfection and can throw it of a fraction of an ounce.

[TODA AU]

I heard it's hard to find someone to tune the AEM EMS down there, any truth to that?

We tune AEM EMS, it's not a bad system at all.
When you weight up the cost vs that of buying & installing a MOTEC,
The AEM presents pretty good value considering it's abilities.
It's not my favorite, but for the money, it's pretty good.
Best bang for bucks is still easily HONDATA & best outright would still be MOTEC.

[TODA AU]

When you get a package like that, does it come ballanced or would you still need to have it ballanced?
Depends on the manufacturer.

[Muzz]

thanks guys, ill have a look into this aem ems.

[Muzz]

what are your opionions of the b18b block in comparison to the b18c block for a race application if say the pistons/rods/crank were upgraded in both?

i hear the rod/stroke ratio is not very good in the b18b, which places more stress on the rods, and also with sidewall loading of the cylinder. how much of a factor is this in the scheme of things? keeping in mind of the basic internal work.