Start clutch failure & solution

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Originally Posted by Jazzdude

My car is now doing the same thing. I just had 60K service done.

The CVT fluid is not due to be changed for another 20K, but should I change it earlier? How long can I wait (the next service ok?)? Is this serious, ie, if I don't change it real soon, is my transmission is going to die?

Should I go easy on the accelerator?

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I suggest you change it now, don't wait. Your current oil could be the ATF-Z1 type, not the CVT-only fluid, the latter oil appears to be used for CVT oil change now. If the transmission gets damaged, it is big money to fix, and a lengthy time required.

I did try to go easy on the accelerator for a while but when moving off from rest on a slope, it is just impossible to avoid the shuddering effect. So, in the end I gave up being gentle on the accelerator and changed the oil.

The oil change seems to be still doing the transmission good thus far. I think this problem varies with individual CVT and mine happens at 135K km, but yours appear to be 60K.

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Originally Posted by lokets

I suggest you change it now, don't wait. Your current oil could be the ATF-Z1 type, not the CVT-only fluid, the latter oil appears to be used for CVT oil change now. If the transmission gets damaged, it is big money to fix, and a lengthy time required.

I did try to go easy on the accelerator for a while but when moving off from rest on a slope, it is just impossible to avoid the shuddering effect. So, in the end I gave up being gentle on the accelerator and changed the oil.

The oil change seems to be still doing the transmission good thus far. I think this problem varies with individual CVT and mine happens at 135K km, but yours appear to be 60K.

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Thanks mate, I am going to buy the CVT oil today (3L) and find someone cheap to put it in. It is going to cost me $14.80/L.

My car is now at 62000Kms, so when should I next change my CVT oil? 100K service?

Until I get it changed I am accelerating like a granny (so that there is no shuddering) LOL!

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Originally Posted by Jazzdude

Thanks mate, I am going to buy the CVT oil today (3L) and find someone cheap to put it in. It is going to cost me $14.80/L.

My car is now at 62000Kms, so when should I next change my CVT oil? 100K service?

Until I get it changed I am accelerating like a granny (so that there is no shuddering) LOL!

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Beware that when you buy the oil, buy the CVT-only specific oil, don't get the conventional automatic Honda oil called ATF-Z1. As far as I know, the CVT-only oil comes in 4L pack only, but the ATF-Z1 comes in 1L or 4L form. The 1L ATF-Z1 is about $14.80/L as you said, hence you maybe buying the wrong type of oil. Just beware of that. The single 4L CVT-only oil cost $81/4L.

You can check the kind of oil you have right now by checking the color of the oil via the CVT dipstick. If the color is a slight red, it is the conventional ATF-Z1 (bad choice). If the color is almost clear (very slight yellow), then it is the newer CVT-only oil (good choice). The CVT-only oil feels almost entirely viscous, like water, but with an oily feel to it.

If the shuddering is giving you problem, change it NOW, regardless of service interval, don't wait until next 70K or 100K km. You can do it yourself as well.

Why suffer to drive like a granny when you can fix the problem right away? Have fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lokets

Beware that when you buy the oil, buy the CVT-only specific oil, don't get the conventional automatic Honda oil called ATF-Z1. As far as I know, the CVT-only oil comes in 4L pack only, but the ATF-Z1 comes in 1L or 4L form. The 1L ATF-Z1 is about $14.80/L as you said, hence you maybe buying the wrong type of oil. Just beware of that. The single 4L CVT-only oil cost $81/4L.

You can check the kind of oil you have right now by checking the color of the oil via the CVT dipstick. If the color is a slight red, it is the conventional ATF-Z1 (bad choice). If the color is almost clear (very slight yellow), then it is the newer CVT-only oil (good choice). The CVT-only oil feels almost entirely viscous, like water, but with an oily feel to it.

If the shuddering is giving you problem, change it NOW, regardless of service interval, don't wait until next 70K or 100K km. You can do it yourself as well.

Why suffer to drive like a granny when you can fix the problem right away? Have fun.

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I went to Honda today and they told me that they don't sell CVT specific oil to retail customers, that they only get it in big 200L drums (I am not really buying that).

They told me to come back next week and then they'll do a test drive etc. of my car for free, and see if it needs an oil change or if it's the start clutch. I have a feeling they are going to tell me it's the start clutch so that I'll need to get it fixed there.

I am pretty sure that the oil in my car at the moment is ATF Z1. Where can I get a hold of the CVT oil, because my local Honda won't sell it to me.

My problem is exactly the same as what you described. The 1/2 second noise is hard to explain, almost like a shudder/humming sound, but only if I accelerate from a dead stop. But if I accelerate very gently, then no noise. Apart from that everything in the car is great. The revs are good and so is the idling (sometimes I think the car has switched off when I stop at the signal lights because it is so quiet and there is no vibration etc.).

Also, did your car's general running noise reduce when you changed the CVT oil?

How hard is it to change the CVT oil myself. I don't have a ramp etc. to raise the car.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jazzdude

I went to Honda today and they told me that they don't sell CVT specific oil to retail customers, that they only get it in big 200L drums (I am not really buying that).

They told me to come back next week and then they'll do a test drive etc. of my car for free, and see if it needs an oil change or if it's the start clutch. I have a feeling they are going to tell me it's the start clutch so that I'll need to get it fixed there.

I am pretty sure that the oil in my car at the moment is ATF Z1. Where can I get a hold of the CVT oil, because my local Honda won't sell it to me.

My problem is exactly the same as what you described. The 1/2 second noise is hard to explain, almost like a shudder/humming sound, but only if I accelerate from a dead stop. But if I accelerate very gently, then no noise. Apart from that everything in the car is great. The revs are good and so is the idling (sometimes I think the car has switched off when I stop at the signal lights because it is so quiet and there is no vibration etc.).

Also, did your car's general running noise reduce when you changed the CVT oil?

How hard is it to change the CVT oil myself. I don't have a ramp etc. to raise the car.

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What a rip-off, Honda not willing to sell the oil. Try another dealership/spares department. I got my 4L CVT only oil at $81 in Springwood Honda, QLD. No questions asked. You are in Sydney, yes, why not ask the friendly folks here, I'm sure there are lots of Sydney CVT Jazz owners & some do buy their Honda oils for replacement, etc.

You can opt for the free test drive offered but if they don't want to sell you the oil, they would also want to charge you heaps for service fees - for potentially not a CVT start clutch failure. It would be to their interests to offer their opinion to you without you first trying to fix this on your own.

I did not notice any reduction in noise after changing to the CVT only fluid. As you said, the car itself is quite quiet. The most amount of noise comes from the air-con belt/drive. That overrides all other noise.

To change the oil, you unplug the drain plug on the right side of the car at the bottom. Then, put back the plug and pour the CVT fluid at the top - after removing dipstick (you will need a long tube to guide the fluid down as the hole is not easily reached). It can be done within 1 hour but dispose the fluid the responsible way. For the unplugging process, you do not need a car ramp, there should be just sufficient space under the car to do the job without the need to jack it up - well I did not.

BTW, out of curiosity, is your Jazz a 1.5 or 1.3? And is your Jazz a Thailand made Jazz? I'm just wondering the quality of transmission from Thailand Jazz now as mine is made in Japan and my Jazz's problem came up in 125K km (pretty long) and yours at only 60K km (too short).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lokets

What a rip-off, Honda not willing to sell the oil. Try another dealership/spares department. I got my 4L CVT only oil at $81 in Springwood Honda, QLD. No questions asked. You are in Sydney, yes, why not ask the friendly folks here, I'm sure there are lots of Sydney CVT Jazz owners & some do buy their Honda oils for replacement, etc.

You can opt for the free test drive offered but if they don't want to sell you the oil, they would also want to charge you heaps for service fees - for potentially not a CVT start clutch failure. It would be to their interests to offer their opinion to you without you first trying to fix this on your own.

I did not notice any reduction in noise after changing to the CVT only fluid. As you said, the car itself is quite quiet. The most amount of noise comes from the air-con belt/drive. That overrides all other noise.

To change the oil, you unplug the drain plug on the right side of the car at the bottom. Then, put back the plug and pour the CVT fluid at the top - after removing dipstick (you will need a long tube to guide the fluid down as the hole is not easily reached). It can be done within 1 hour but dispose the fluid the responsible way. For the unplugging process, you do not need a car ramp, there should be just sufficient space under the car to do the job without the need to jack it up - well I did not.

BTW, out of curiosity, is your Jazz a 1.5 or 1.3? And is your Jazz a Thailand made Jazz? I'm just wondering the quality of transmission from Thailand Jazz now as mine is made in Japan and my Jazz's problem came up in 125K km (pretty long) and yours at only 60K km (too short).

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I'll try getting the CVT oil through some other dealership, but I'll let them do the test drive first (it free after all).

I think the noise is mainly because of my tyres. I took out the Yoko's put on Pirelli Dragons. Much better grip, but a bit noisy.

Mine is a 1.3L Japanese made (built in 2002) Jazz. I bought it brand new and always serviced it regularly (log book service), always use only 100% synthetic engine oil and 98 RON petrol. I never really push the car too hard. I can't understand why this is happening. :(

there was a bulletin on these..
its coz the jazz cvt's.. are shit.
what happens is that after a while.. some jazz's create this shuddering (which can be avoided by regular oil changes, but even still, cvt's are crap.).. our initial solution was to replace the start clutch. and after about 10 million start clutches we did.. honda sends out a bulletin saying all it needs is a genuine honda cvt-f flush, it doesnt to be reset, unless youve changed ur battery or wateva. so what we do now with jazz'z that shudder is just replace the oil, take it for a drive, then replace it again.. and shudder gone, and if isnt, new start clutch kit.

you will find that most honda's just use honda atf. they only recently brought out the cvtf, and we only get it in 60L drums.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baopham

there was a bulletin on these..
its coz the jazz cvt's.. are shit.
what happens is that after a while.. some jazz's create this shuddering (which can be avoided by regular oil changes, but even still, cvt's are crap.).. our initial solution was to replace the start clutch. and after about 10 million start clutches we did.. honda sends out a bulletin saying all it needs is a genuine honda cvt-f flush, it doesnt to be reset, unless youve changed ur battery or wateva. so what we do now with jazz'z that shudder is just replace the oil, take it for a drive, then replace it again.. and shudder gone, and if isnt, new start clutch kit.

you will find that most honda's just use honda atf. they only recently brought out the cvtf, and we only get it in 60L drums.

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Do you meant: the Honda workshop procedure is:

1. Replace CVT oil with new CVT-only oil
2. Drive around, if no shudder, good.
3. If shudder, drain the oil again and refill with another round of fresh CVT-only oil.
4. Drive around, if no shudder, good.
5. If shudder, do the start clutch replacement.

So, if the shudder comes back on my CVT, I do twice the fluid replacement (worse-case)? How do you drain the fluid totally? The replacement procedure does not (nor I think it can) remove the entire volume of 4L+ of oil - the change volume is about 3.6L. Short of holding the car & tilting on its side vertically.

And, according to your experience, how much does it cost to get the start kit replaced?

Presumably, even after replacing the start kit, this problem can come back, and if so, just repeat the above... what a "solution", sigh... :thumbdwn:

The new Honda CVTF fluid certainly in many cases when proper procedure in flushing and recalibrating start clutch does in 90% of cases rectify judder issues. If it doesnt rectify it its approx $1300 to get it rectified.

i have to some problem with my 2003 VTi-S only done 40k kms so that i created a tread "When does u guy change the CVT transmission oil"
after CVT oil changed the shudder event disappear
so change the oil asap

i had the same problem on my ek civic, its 99 model and only had 66,000kms.
i gave the car to yarra honda and they quoted me $5000 for the rebuild including labor. i got worried n shit....i found a few honda speiclists in thomastown who only rebuilds honda transmission and quoted 2.5k for it.

anyways...i did not have money to repair the transmission and had to sell the car straight away..

i heard a lot of horror things about the CVT transmission , apparently this is the worst transmission honda evet introduced...your not supposed to hammer your car at the lights otherwise u will destroy it...

OK, it's been about 3 weeks+ now since my first complaint about the juddering of the CVT on start-up and since replacing with the premium CVT-specific transmission oil, the problem has not since re-surface. I did not do a CVT ECU reset though.

My only conclusion from this: changing the CVT oil apparently does help in a big way, and change it as soon as you notice the symptoms I described.

Also change the CVT oil at a more regular interval than what's suggested in the service manual (I think the recommended distance is 60K km but that maybe too long - you decide what's best for your self).