[Euro] Hard Starting Problem

My old S15 even modded (until I went to 740cc injectors) definitely cranked over at the 1st turn everytime, no matter what conditions.

The Euro Accord 'usually' cranks over in 1-2 cranks.
ZEi20T - the problem isn't that it doesn't cold start. The Euro Accord when u get it, you'll notice its hard to warm-start it. Say you were driving. Stopped for 10 minutes for shopping. Then start it again to drive off. It takes like 3-5 cranks and it feels like it wants to die.

Some people complain on here that they can't even warm-start their car the first time they turn the key. I don't think anyone is having problems with Cold Start as such? If ANYONE has cold-start problems, check that your battery is at 12.65V so you know its charged.

Anyway, what that all means is - the CCA in this case is irrelevant. CCA is a measurement of the Cranking Amps available at -18C for 30 seconds before it drops below a certain Voltage. If our Euro Accords can cold start not a problem at 5C in the morning or 0C, it clearly shows its not CCA related.

For warm-start problems you could look at the HCA instead, but this is related and 'nearly' proportional to the CCA anyway. So is the CCA is good enough for cold-start, the battery should be good enough for warm-starts as well.

Even though I mentioned it could well be Vapour Lock related, going by the symptoms...

My latest suspicion could be that after a 'certain warm period of time', the cylinder and the part of the engine block its touching might still be hot enough, while the remaining of the engine block itself has started to cool from the outside towards the inside. Knowing that Aluminium (Alloy) has one of the higher coefficient of thermal expansions, it could mean that part of the engine block is shrinking at this particular point in time whilst the central cylinder heads are still really hot and bigger. This resistance could make it hard to start the engine. The long stroke of the Engine doesn't help either, especially depending on the position the cylinders were parked before the car was switched off?

As such, even though I mentioned the CCA itself was irrelevant, the related normal Cranking Amps might indeed be relevant because more cranking amps means the the Starter Motor can crank harder.

You see, when we have the Warm Start Up problem - the Cranking noise is noticeably 'weaker' in sound, as if the engine isn't willing to turn over. As such, better grounding or a better battery might indeed work better under this situation. Not that it will help anymore with Cold-Start itself, because usually we don't have a problem with the car as it is anyway?

Using Synthetic oil in the engine probably helps too in any case? Or revving the engine a lot so the car's better run in?

I use synthetic oil and ran the car hard during run in and it still had the warm start problem. Eitherway, go to Jaycar, get 2 connectors and about 2 metres of 4 gauge cable. Cable will run you $12, while the connectors are $3 for the pair. Put them together, file the opening of one connector so that the alternator bolt fits, cable tie it down and give it a whirl. $15 for your warm starting problems if it helps. Wasting $15 first is better than getting one of those $130 capacitor kits or a $200 high CCA battery that might not solve the problem.

yeh i've noticed a few times when the engine struggles to start, and i'm not too sure why...

i've also noticed sometimes when the engine doesn't start at all...no cranking at all...not too sure if it has anythin to do with the immobiliser....coz it starts fine when i try it the 2nd time...

Another thing as well with the idle.

Many new cars these days have an air sensor in the idle mechanism. If that gets clogged up with crap, you can sometimes have a hard time starting as there isn't enough air getting in and the sensor doesn't increase the engine's idle speed. I'm not sure about the Euro's idle setup, but the old throttle cable with a screw adjustment for idle speed, whilst low-tech, was a surefire way to get the idle speed where you wanted it to be.

But the Euro's have the hard start issue when when new so I doubt thats the cause. Pretty sure its an emissions thing.

I have been told that pumping the accelerator while starting may affect the way the cars computer interprets its diagnostics for startup. Not sure how much of it is true?
I'm keen to find out why you don't do this to an EFI car?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yfin

One thing my dad once told me was NEVER touch the accelerator pedal when starting an EFI car (he is a motor mechanic). I'll ask him why next time I see him.

---

wow after driving tonight i see exactly what you all mean. my car needs to kick over a bit before it starts. and tonight it almost didnt start.

hmm ill investigate this myself also. ill start disconnecting sensors and testing it that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cgspot

I have been told that pumping the accelerator while starting may affect the way the cars computer interprets its diagnostics for startup. Not sure how much of it is true?
I'm keen to find out why you don't do this to an EFI car?

---

The Euro has DBW so would it do anything anyway? ..until the engine is actually running off course.

If I recall correctly, the manual says it de-floods the engine, or something along those lines.

Ive only just recently started having this problem too... my car has 80,000kms on the clock... its 03 lux 6mt.. It started happening since the weather has warmed up to over 30C's... at first i thought i might have stuffed up the starter motor because i cranked while the aircon was on... and it kept happening ever since then.. now i realise its a common problem with accord euros.... i still will mention it to my dealer though next time i service..

The TSX has the same problem. Some have upgraded to an Optima Yellow battery and also a voltage stabilizer, with promising results.

Have a look at this thread:
http://www.tsxclub.com/forums/showth...ght=hard+start

Mines had this problem basically since i got it, i have an optima yellow battery and it helped a bit but the problem still happens sometimes!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drezy

Ive only just recently started having this problem too... my car has 80,000kms on the clock... its 03 lux 6mt.. It started happening since the weather has warmed up to over 30C's... at first i thought i might have stuffed up the starter motor because i cranked while the aircon was on... and it kept happening ever since then.. now i realise its a common problem with accord euros.... i still will mention it to my dealer though next time i service..

---

If you are still on your original battery, that 300 CCA pos will have hard trouble starting most large cars by the time it's 3 years old. Consider replacing your battery with something about 400+ CCA (cost me $100-120).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EuroDude

The TSX has the same problem. Some have upgraded to an Optima Yellow battery and also a voltage stabilizer, with promising results.

Have a look at this thread:
http://www.tsxclub.com/forums/showth...ght=hard+start

---

Optima is not shipping anymore D51Rs though.... an alternative is the larger red top 35R. It'll fit if you remove the bottom battery tray and flip around the battery securing piece.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EuroDude

The Euro has DBW so would it do anything anyway? ..until the engine is actually running off course.

If I recall correctly, the manual says it de-floods the engine, or something along those lines.

---

dont belive DBW is the culprit. i've other cars with DBW, no such problems.

try to always warm ur car every 2 days.. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sendok

try to always warm ur car every 2 days.. :p

---

warm start, cold start, warm up, no warm up, hot, cold, hail, and shine, the euro is always hard to start.



The Jazz 1.3L has ULEV yeah?
when I drove one, it started instantly everytime. only took one crank and it was away.

Ours also had the 'longer than usual' start, but only once when it had about 1500k's on it. Hasn't happened again so far after 2800k's. This occurred on a hot day, after parking the car for about an hour. It started normally after a 'key off... on...wait... then try again.' We previously came from a 99 Wrx, and yep....seems like you wait forever for those to start.

Sob...sob...I still miss the rex.........:(

[QUOTE=EuroDude;1032681]warm start, cold start, warm up, no warm up, hot, cold, hail, and shine, the euro is always hard to start.

hmm... how long is be? i'm wondering what is the ideal time for start.. how many sec? i'm afraid mine also hard to start.. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sendok

hmm... how long is be? i'm wondering what is the ideal time for start.. how many sec? i'm afraid mine also hard to start.. :(

---

Well each crank is something like 400ms, and the Euro takes at least 4 cranks to start, so:

Min 4 cranks = 1600ms
Avg 5 cranks = 2000ms
Max 7 cranks = 2800ms (this is rare, but sometimes the engine almost stalls and finally starts up at very low revs)

compared to say a Jazz which typically takes only 1 crank = 400ms

It has always started up though, ive never had to turn the key again.


The new Civic has a K20A3 yeah? I wander if that also has the long/hard start problem :confused:

Yes, mine (a 2006 Std manual all stock) takes 4-5 turns of the crank to start. I usually let the fuel pump prime the pressure that but that does not seem to make any difference.

Last Saturday was walking past a 2006 Lux in a car park and it started really quickly like it was only 1 turn of the crank ! It looked totally standard so don't know if they had done anything special or were just "lucky".

Now my old 88 Civic (not fuel injected) would catch after 0.5-1 turns which was great. I' ve seen various explanations that characteristics of the car i.e.

- high compression
- long throw crank
- fuel injection
- weak battery

all cause this. Just find it odd that it otherwise nicely engineered car "struggles" to start.

^ mine has started in just one crank once, I think it was after I turned the engine off while the revs were still high or something lol

99% of the time it takes 4-5 cranks though

i think someone said it before, and my lux is the same, after i let it go through the checks (and the other thing left is the selt belt light) it starts straight away 1or 2 cranks. but after a drive and a ten minute or so stop, it takes 4-5 cranks..wierd as euro dude said rarely i get the more the 5 crank almost stalling low rev start,

I think the battery could have something to do with it.i think it's only 300CAA.You can get batteries with higher CAA with the same footprint.This may eliminate or reduce this problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronng

Optima is not shipping anymore D51Rs though.... an alternative is the larger red top 35R. It'll fit if you remove the bottom battery tray and flip around the battery securing piece.

---

The Yellow Top D75 (650cca) Optima fits with very minor changes



Has anyone ever had theres actually stall when trying to start it?
mine seems like its going to sometimes but ive never had it not start

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 80057

i think someone said it before, and my lux is the same, after i let it go through the checks (and the other thing left is the selt belt light) it starts straight away 1or 2 cranks. but after a drive and a ten minute or so stop, it takes 4-5 cranks..wierd as euro dude said rarely i get the more the 5 crank almost stalling low rev start,

---

This morning my euro started in just one crank, I think it depends on where the position the engine is rotated at when the engine is turned off.
I always wait for the fuel to prime before starting, but it still delays 4-5 cranks most of the time.

i guess 4-5 crank should be consider as a standard time? my euro also around 4-5 atm i try.

as of late my euro has been fairly random... generally in the mornings starting the engine cold can be anywhere from 6-10 cranks...!! when its warmer its 4-5 cranks... i have a feeling it may be my battery... will have to upgrade to a 650CCA one instead of the stock 300CCA...

my experience - 4-5 in the mornings everyday, during the day - 4-8 especially on hot days. I am a sales rep so my car gets started very often - approx 8-10 times p/day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drezy

as of late my euro has been fairly random... generally in the mornings starting the engine cold can be anywhere from 6-10 cranks...!! when its warmer its 4-5 cranks... i have a feeling it may be my battery... will have to upgrade to a 650CCA one instead of the stock 300CCA...

---

I currently have a 650cca battery and id have to say it helped a little bit but generally its still an issue, compared to any other newer cars ive had experience with its definately the slowest to start.

Ah well, getting used to it now so long as it doesnt start stalling i dont mind :p

Yeh a battery wont solve the problem completely. Some TSX dudes have put a voltage regulator on the starter motors earth (I think thats how it works) and got good results.

Pretty sure the engines ULEV fuel return feature also has something to do with it.

Any recommended voltage stabilizers to help the hard start?
Does ok if I turn the key two notches and wait for beeps and lights to stop then crank it. But if I crank straight away it only just makes it.

Voltage stabilisers do nothing for this.

Main reason - Battery CCA rating is too low on the stock battery.
Solution - Anything above 400CCA will definitely help.

Best to have all earthing straps done on the car.
Do it the same time you change your battery so it saves you time.

So change your negative battery cable>chassis --> 0/2/4G wire.
and also the other side if you can be stuffed. Engine mount>chassis

Solution = get a higher capacity battery.

Mine starts much quicker now with a decent battery. I think its 400cca

any particular batteries I should look out for

people like supercharge gold/ac delco and some others i can't think from the top of my head.

I've got korean solite.

The Optima D51 is a good option, same size as the OEM but with 450-500CCA. Its deep cycle as well, so if you plan on some audio work in the future, something to consider.

But its well above your average batt price.

The old batch is rated @ 500CCA, new batch is rated @ 450CCA. According to their website spec sheet. lol :)

Nah I'm not running a soundsystem, so whats bang for your buck?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by power_of_dreams

Nah I'm not running a soundsystem, so whats bang for your buck?

---

Shop around, i wouldn't paymore than $350.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tpphan

The Optima D51 is a good option, same size as the OEM but with 450-500CCA. Its deep cycle as well, so if you plan on some audio work in the future, something to consider.

But its well above your average batt price.

The old batch is rated @ 450CCA, new batch is rated @ 500CCA. According to their website spec sheet. lol :)

---

The old batch was 500CCA. The new ones are 450CCA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronng

The old batch was 500CCA. The new ones are 450CCA.

---

Cools. You would think that the new one would be rated higher. lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tpphan

Cools. You would think that the new one would be rated higher. lol

---

The reason why it went down is because the 500CCA ones had a design defect where the spiral cells were too thin and were cracking. So now that they are 450CCA only, I am guessing that they have made the cells thicker to avoid the cracking problem.

this is a problem I have had since new with mum's 05 euro and I also have this with my 05 euro. Both are manual.

I complained 10 times to my workshop controller when I was at a honda dealer and he was speechless. Was told by others in the workshop to try different premium fuels. A fuel pressure reg was done on mum's under warranty and did nothing. Put reports into Honda and never got anything back

FYI mum and I both have the hard start when hot, usually when the car has been parked for up to a few hours.

Normally occurs when its hot. But a change of battery normally minimises this problem occurring too often.

I have it still sometimes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rob_A

this is a problem I have had since new with mum's 05 euro and I also have this with my 05 euro. Both are manual.

I complained 10 times to my workshop controller when I was at a honda dealer and he was speechless. Was told by others in the workshop to try different premium fuels. A fuel pressure reg was done on mum's under warranty and did nothing. Put reports into Honda and never got anything back

FYI mum and I both have the hard start when hot, usually when the car has been parked for up to a few hours.

---

Try stopping the car, letting it idle for 10 seconds, then turn off. Then start it when hot. It helped me with the problem.

ive owned my 03 euro for about 2 months, i bought it with 95ks on the clock and have experienced these laggy and sluggish starts I first got that sinking feeling of 'ohhh godd i bought a stuffed car' but i now understand its a common problem, it only happens every so often, i believe it only happens when i let of the key to early when starting, if i hold it on start until its started it usually starts fine but it still takes between 3-5 cranks :|, i sorta figured it was because if the high compression. its almost embarrassing when it barely starts , people see this nice flash Honda and then hear it start :S lol.

wait for the system checks to finish before you crank, it starts much smoother.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sodhi90

ive owned my 03 euro for about 2 months, i bought it with 95ks on the clock and have experienced these laggy and sluggish starts I first got that sinking feeling of 'ohhh godd i bought a stuffed car' but i now understand its a common problem, it only happens every so often, i believe it only happens when i let of the key to early when starting, if i hold it on start until its started it usually starts fine but it still takes between 3-5 cranks :|, i sorta figured it was because if the high compression. its almost embarrassing when it barely starts , people see this nice flash Honda and then hear it start :S lol.

---

Check if you are still on the original 2003 battery. If you are, then it is time to change. Supercharge Gold and AC delco are good.

man i had this problem too then eventually my car didnt even start and i had to get it towed and get a new starter motor so get it checked out !

the battery is fairly new , december 08 if i read it properly so that should be good, i think what i read earlier sound right , if u let it idle for a few seconds then switch it off it starts alot nicer ! so it must be somthing to do with fuel or vapour in the chamber

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sodhi90

the battery is fairly new , december 08 if i read it properly so that should be good, i think what i read earlier sound right , if u let it idle for a few seconds then switch it off it starts alot nicer ! so it must be somthing to do with fuel or vapour in the chamber

---

Ahh, so it is happening to you when you try to start the engine again after driving for a while? Then yes, that's normal. Just let it idle for a while like you said and it will help the next time you start it.