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ekslut: Semi seam welding is the best option. Front and rear strut towers, then everything in between is the best parts to weld, although the ED Civic could do with some strength around the radiator support as well, as the castor rod attaches there.
One inch long weld with say between a 2"~4" gap between welds will make it strong enough as your car is probably very light.
Best thing is, when you go up driveways at an angle, you can actually feel the whole chassis staying stiff instead of twisting. I will get pics of my N14 Pulsar interior shortly.
sweet id luv to check out ur pics too
sweet, thanks for the advice guys.
The car is already completely stripped, all sound deadening removed, etc...
I have a few mates who can weld, so I think I will just get them to do the job :thumbsup:
So basically if I got a 1/2" - 1" weld every 4" that would be all good?
I'll post up some pics when its all done :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzz
awsome! if you havnt already, check out the 1st link in post #75, i like the idea this guy has of driling down a little to reach the second layer of metal, then welding it up, otherwise, unless ur using a high powered welder, u may not be actually fusing the layers of metal together properly. Also doing this would let u use less heat/power which i recon would give less chance of warpage problems.
read post number 14 in the thread i recomended above ^
If you are going to do it that is good advice. Go to your local parts or tool place and they have a tool that goes into your drill and looks like a mini hole saw about 5mm wide with replaceable "Saws". Body shops use them to drill out the stock robot welds when replacing a panel and they drill out only the first panel leaving a nice small hole showing the second panel underneath so you can weld directly to BOTH panels at the same time. If you can't find some maybe "Skinnyboy" can tell you where he gets his.
To use them if you get good at it you just pick your spot and drill, if you need some practice center punch the spot first then drill. You will feel the drill spin freely when you get through the first panel and a small circle of metal will fall out, BUT you can drill through the second panel if you keep the drill pressure on so stop when you get through the first panel. They are cheap and easy to use so you could drill the holes and your buddies doing the welding can follow you around saving you some time.
Just wanted to correct an earlier post.
Foam used to fill chassis spaces isn't the generic stuff you purchase at the hardware store.
It's two part (like epoxy) and has to be mixed together, then introduced into the void somehow before it starts to set.
Not sure of a local supplier of two part foam.... anyone?
Nick.
There were some posts on ozhonda with links to where to buy this stuff from
I realise it isn't your generic expanding foam stuff. But does this actually help much?
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/pr..._300zx_part_5/ About 2/3 of the way down in this article they talk about foam filling the rails.
here is there verdict
Quote:
We were amazed at how this simple procedure improved the performance of the car. The chassis now almost feels like it has a roll cage. A sloped driveway can be driven up sideways with nary a creak. Even though the Z already has a pretty tight chassis, it feels more solid. The ride has improved and road noise has been reduced noticeably. We bet that the car will be even more responsive to chassis tuning measures in the future. If you are a slalom racer, a road racer, have a lowered car or even just want a smoother ride; foaming is a worthy, easy-to-do modification. Foamseal has foams in densities as high as 10 lbs per square foot if you desire to make things even stiffer.
hmmm seems interesting
Where to buy this stuff?
And is it easy to DIY or should be done by a panel beater?
couldnt really say there, i have no experiance with automotive foam. search in google or yahoo australia "automotive foam" im sure ull find somthing.
dont know abuot how difficult it would be to diy, but if a panel beater does it, ul have somone to blame if it makes a mess!
Shouldnt be to hard though, drill a few holes in ur chassis rails, and use a funnel to fill the desired amount, i think it doubles in size as it expands, itll say the expansion rate on the pack. Then scrape off any over flow as it comes out & sand any overflow off when completly dry.
Once again i have no idea about this stuff, but it dosnt "sound" to hard, but could get messy.
Back from the dead, ive been reading that if u foam fill your rails, and they are damaged in an accident, it makes them almost imposible to fix. Making it a not so smart option for a street car. I cant confirm how valid this claim is but a few ppl have mentioned it in various places around the net.
Ive also read, when doing spot welding/seam welding/seam stitching, it is extreemly advisable to do one weld, then move to another part of the car and do another weld, move back and do another weld etc. and keep varying the places u weld. Also to cool each weld using a hair dryer on cold or somthing simular (not water cus it can crack the welds!), before doing the next one, to help reduce the chance of warpage problems.
Very shortly my EG is going in to be seam-welded(excluding engine bay) and have a CAMS approved cage fabricated (weld-in also), then off to to body-shop for inside-out paint-job. We will have the front fenders removed and have some triangular plates welded on (to serve as a fender brace). Should be very interesting.
Wouldn't the size/stiffness of the swaybars and length(stroke) of the suspension change that?Quote:
Originally Posted by iamhappy46
As soon as I installed my 22mm Rear swaybar...my car hits 3/2 wheel motions when entering a driveway. Regardless of how stiff your chassis is (to a reasonable extent) the main things that would cause that would be swaybars and stroke...
Swaybars because when force is applied to one wheel greater force is applied to the other resulting in lifting of the wheel. Stroke because if your suspension setup has a small stroke when entering driveways the wheel has only limited space to drop, causing it to "float" in mid-air not so much be "Forced there".
Chassis ridgidity would help this, but wouldnt be the sole cause. If stock our chassis where twisting that much...there would be some serious design flaws.
Just an update on this front, I've got a cage design sorted in Chromoly and there is a possibility the car could be going in next week to start the work. Otherwise, it will be a couple of weeks before they can fit me in. Look forward to seeing the difference a tower to tower bird cage makes :-)
Have you confirmed the racing activities you want to do? and checked the regs for the cages they allow?
IPRA does not allow cages to protrude from the cabin and link the towers.
just a thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by STiR
Yeah whilst its a better option strenght wise, as e240 says, might wanna check race class reg's if thats what u intend on doing?
Fair point, the car is actually a daily driven street car. I will only ever use it for club sprint events, john bowe high performance driver training days etc. where there is no necessity for a roll cage. The cage is for my own safety, and for superior chassis rigidity. It's part of my take on Porsche's RS concept... drive to the track, on the track, and back home again...then to uni the next day!
Big money for a everyday + track car... whats the chassis welding costing you alone???Quote:
Originally Posted by STiR
I've never understood why in 3J (don't know about other CAMS sanctioned catagories) that they can't go through the firewall and onto the shock towers with a good plate/box design.
Cage on the street I am always a fence sitter when it comes to this... on one hand (depending who builds and signs off the cage) you have the chance to have a track car that does not have the hassle and expense of tow car and trailer.
On the other.... you have the safety issue of driving with steel pipe very close to your noggin. Some gusseting I have seen comes awefully close to where your head would be. As for the whole "but you cover it with foam"..... have someone swing one of those foam covered baseball bats at your head.
Sure it might stop you splitting your head open.... but the impact is still there IMO.
just a thought....id hate to be inside a car with a full or semi roll cage , in a normal everyday road accident. Rather be in a car that crumples and absorbs the impact rather than be violently thrown around and perhaps into more trouble
True true true benny.
For this instance, get any cage.. Cusco or custom bolt-in. Dont get welded in case you want to remove the cage.Quote:
Originally Posted by STiR
Nice concept :p
Number of points mentioned, most valid. The cage is being built with safety in mind, this also relates to occupant safety on the road. The b-pillar roll-over hoop will be placed rearward of the b-pillar but will be tagged, as an example. The cage is being done by Fabraications, and they will ensure all members are as far away from occupants as possible. No bars near the head for sure...
As for safety in the case of an impact, there are a number of things to remember. The crumple zones front and rear of the car will not be affected. The cage is designed to stop the zone in which the occupants are from crumpling, which is of course desired. Forward and rearward of the strut towers the car will be unaffected. Hopefully the side-intrusion safety will be significantly improved.
Still, as safety is very important, I have a fixed bucket seat and will be using a harness. As you will see in race cars, the key is to limit the movement of the occupants in the event of an impact. The passenger seat is an EVO RECARO which has much more lateral support than the factory seat ever did...
With regards to having a bolt-in cage, there are a number of disadvantages. None of them offer the same protection, and none of them offer any rear advantage in chassis rigidity. With the weld-in, you have both, and they are cheaper to fabricate too.
Also in terms of weight, I was told the cage would weigh around 40kg in cold-drawn mild steel, and around 20-25kg in Chromoly (my preference). I believe much of this weight can be offset by gutting the doors (removal of heavy steel bars and drilling to remove excess material). Also investigating carbon doors, if i can get some at a good price. I think I might be able to completely offset the weight of the cage using carbon doors!
I think you guys will like the car when it's complete :)
Here's a pic showing a very similar cage design:
http://www.morinosu.net/store/car/eg3_civic_27.jpg
And a picture of what the door will look like (will have a pretty aluminum sheet over it, plus manual window winder and door handle and lock will be retained (not very heavy at all).
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6...g046nf2.th.jpghttp://img525.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif
Thats pretty Hard core. I compete in the NSW Supersprint Championships and like you, the reason for having a cage in for safety. I've at this point opted for a 1/2 cage per recommended designs in the CAMS manual but as I have more or less decided this car may be converted to a full on track car in the future, I'm not concerned about restoring the car back to original.
Its also made out of mild steel so as to avoid future homologation problems.
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...0_a/Cage-1.jpg
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...0_a/Cage-2.jpg
Note: From your picture, see his uncovered battery and fuel surge tank? Thats actually not CAMS approved in any form of racing in AU.
Good looking cage there. Yep, aware that the surge tank set up should be covered. I don't have anything like that though. I will be having my battery relocated to the same position (behind the passenger seat), however it will be in a nicely fabricated battery box. This is to allow for A-pillar member to be extended through the firewall to the front left shock tower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by STiR
before you get a cage you have to learn how to drive!!!!!!!!!
oh and that other pedal on the right is the clutch :p
Umm... Zac I was pretty sure you get a cage because you DON'T know how to drive...
na, you got it wrong its coz u cant see past all that beard and hair of yours........Quote:
Originally Posted by STiR
Do some work. Who drives with their eyes? I drive with my heart dude. haha
thats sooo corney, like the cages though, preety hardcore cars there
Not to be taken too seriously!
farnie, After 10 pages, I think the thread just died.