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If so, then I expect all that they can do is de-tune the engine management computer because they can't readily change the high compression ratio. Either way, customers should be able to opt for a refund if it results in a loss of power or torque.Quote:
Originally Posted by denot
The guys name is HEINZ you can contact him through the contact page on the honda website. Here is the link...http://www.honda.com.au/wps/wcm/conn...es/Contact+Us/
i took it in my first service today and took one of the technicians for a test drive
he said it wasnt pinging cause it would be much louder and rougher but reckons its an exhaust resonanse (sp?) sound. i will get it checked at my next service
It is engine pinging.. even Honda Australia recognise it is engine pinging. Dealers fob you off cause they dont know what to do. Add you voice to a long list of people who have the same problem with their 2009 Euro Auto . Go to the Honda web page and file a complaint.
The guys name is HEINZ you can contact him through the contact page on the honda website. Here is the link...http://www.honda.com.au/wps/wcm/conn...es/Contact+Us/
I think that as the noise continues and to be honest makes me feel unsafe in a vehicle that should not make such a noise. As such I think the product is unsafe...
Accordingly, the following may be a useful link...
http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/54217
Additionally, this link may also be helpful...
http://www.fairtrading.qld.gov.au/of...1=Publications
so just confirming again as the thread is quite long now............
NO PINGING ON MANUAL Lux?
Not that i am aware..Quote:
Originally Posted by MKI4EVA
Anyone have any updates, I am about to email the dealer and Honda Australia again, I am at the end of my patience, it was thin before, but now with a rattling parcel shelf and passenger side speaker, it is time that enough is enough...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobjones
wow.......if I didn't know better I would have thought it was thai made.
Rattling parcel shelf and rattling speaker requires dynamat to deaden the vibrations. Don't think the dealer will do that for you under warranty. I have had them try to fix door rattles before and they just made it worse because each time they take the door panel off, the clips loosen up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobjones
Well mate, its very sad that we have to go thru all these..damn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobjones
What promised to be a good car, turn out even worsen than some cheaper brand. Very sad...Definately not what i expect from HONDA!!!!!!!!!
The fact that it 'rattles' at lower revs instead of mid-high revs and also it doesn't do it when going uphill at at load suggests it cannot be engine detonation.
Not sure if the CU2 owners know, but in the older Euro-Accords, there is funny metallic/watery noise coming from the air compressor of the air-con when the Temperature Control is set to anything other than the minimum or 19 degrees. It doesn't matter if the Air-con or Climate control is turned on or not, the noise is there when accelerating if that dial isn't on min or 19.
My car has that problem too and it sounds a bit like rattling metal except it doesn't have a power-cut feeling.
May be you guys should give this a try, turn down the climate control temp (even if its off) and isolate this problem first?
By the way, if the gearbox has a rattle noise, it should be much noisier when cold than when its warm. Like aarong said, if this is only happening in the Auto not the Manual, it might not be the engine. Although its hard to say if the Auto has a different mapping mode. Nowadays though, constant engine pinging is very highly unlikely. The ECU adjusts many variables from timings to fuel loads, if it pings enough it should even revert to a fail-safe mode to prevent damage. Somehow I just don't believe this is an engine issue at all.
My dealer called me yesterday to ask me whether the car still ping after different petrol. They also told me that Honda Australia and Honda Japan is looking after the issue now. They just asked me to wait for the solution from them. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobjones
Ok so are they still saying its a fuel issue???
I will drop it back to Honda to have the other issues addressed when they come up with a solution. Maybe I should email them today...
Also Ometesando, yes I have tried what you have said and also there is no power cut feeling and it DOES make the sound quite often when going up hills, well it does in my case. As it stands, the sound is VERY much like pinging and being auto where the problem appears to be compared to manual, the incorrect gear selection results in load being placed on the engine as there is no "free spinning of the engine as both gearbox and engine are continually mated", thus it "could be" a combination of issues, ie the gear selection program is not properly matched to the ecu mapping. Also as for the fail safe mode, if the noise is within specs or the knock sensor is not located well enough to pick this up that will not happen, I am yet to see a factory sensor do an exception job of knock detection...
Also re the gearbox noise being louder when warm as compared to cold, I am yet to see a gearbox issue especially in an automatic get better with warmth, the warmer gearbox fluid is more viscous and thus lends itself to increasing the chances of noise especially with regards to something that is not picked up by the magical sensors that seemed to be so overly relied on these days...
I am sure if I had the time, the facilties including a dyno I could more than likely isolate the problem, but should I...I think not.
If you are not losing power, I really don't think it is caused by engine pinging. Because pinging comes from the mixture igniting too early, during the compression cycle. So you would feel a loss of power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobjones
The lose of power in relation to engine pinging is marginal unless you are talking peak power knock/pinging. The only way you will notice it is on a dyno, the seat of the pants especially in a N/A car will be virtually undetectable...
And to quote a smart man...
"Pinging" is the rattling sound an engine can make when accelerating. It usually occurs when the vehicle pulls away from a stop and the engine is under a lot of load or is "lugging" This is not a normal condition or desirable condition.
Here are some common reasons for an engine to ping.
An engine can ping because the combustion process is incorrect in some way. A "spark knock" is the result of combustion occurring too early. In a properly-firing cylinder, the flame front starts on one side of the piston and burns across the top to the other side, which creates a rapid and evenly-expanding gas that pushes down on the top of the piston. When the combustion process occurs too early, there is a random explosion in multiple locations on top of the piston; when this occurs, the flame front inside the cylinder collides with itself and does not burn evenly. An ignition timing that is too far advanced from the proper specification will create a spark knock because the combustion is initiated too early.
An engine can ping because it is too hot; this is another uneven combustion scenario that is caused by the air-to-fuel mixture "lighting off" by itself. If the cooling system does not keep the engine's combustion chamber temperature in check, the air-to-fuel mixture will begin to spontaneously explode. This is also called "pre-ignition."
In addition to cooling system problems, pinging can be caused by improper gasoline octane, an overly lean air-to-fuel mixture, or a lack of proper exhaust gas recirculation. The exhaust gas recirculation system (EGR) was created to neutralize engine pinging by adding a small amount of exhaust gas to the air-to-fuel mixture going in to the combustion process, which limits the peak combustion chamber temperature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobjones
very good points there mate...........:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobjones
Surely you could pay them a few dollars for some new clips and hopefully that would solve the problem. Or is it not that simple?Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
You can try. I just brought my car in, told them there was a door rattle, they test drove and confirmed it, took off door panel and tightened something up, returned the car and then after a few weeks, more rattles than it originally had. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by unity
I have my car in for an alignment next week. I'll ask them how much they would charge for brand new clips and will post on here when I find out.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
You should take it off yourself. Problem is that their are cords hanging in your doors for lights, window etc and they will rattle against the trim. As you mentioned before, a $30 sheet of dynamat xtreme will stop anything from rattling as all the wiring will be stuck down. Will also improve road noise and mid bass from your mids :DQuote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
They did the dynamat, but something else came loose. :p
Did the dealer do the dynamat?Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
Yup, there was a TSB and all they did was a narrow strip of dynamat-like material which went between the wiring and the door.Quote:
Originally Posted by unity
Ha that's no good dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
With my door trims on the Bora I had them off for a couple of hours with a nice tube of silicone, foam and liquid nails. Gave it a bang and anything loose that shouldn't be got nailed. Any possible gaps where siliconed. Dynamated the door and did the same with any wires etc that where loose. Even wrapped the speaker wire in the door with foam. Even with the Sd'er, the door wires may rattle on the trim unless they are secured down.
Finished all that had them back on and it still did it, found it was the door light ( which I took out ). Bit more silicone and it was ok. My car was 5 years old when I did that ( 2001 Model ), you shouldn't really have to do it for a newish car like yours.
Well first of all if there is no ascertainable, seat of the pants power-cut, that is a good indication that it is not engine pinging. I disagree though that you haven't experienced Knock Sensors that do not do their job properly. How do you know, if you haven't put the car on the Dyno? In your and others case, the suspected pinging/detonation is happening at low revs. There is absolutely no way that knock sensors do not detect low-mid rpm range knocking 100% accurately. Only at about say 4000-5000rpm or above do they become a bit confused by other noise but even then, these days the redesigned filter system makes them reliable even in the higher rpms. When I was dyno tuning my performane car before, the stock Knock sensor, my PowerFC computer read-out, also on the Dyno - all correlated. So, I would recommend that you should ask Honda to pay for a Dyno session just to isolate this problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobjones
Also contrary to what you said, Auto gearboxes get better when warmer. The lower Viscosity of oil or in Auto Fluid's case, is because at low temperature they can flow enough to protect the moving metallic parts. At lower temps, the thinner fluid makes it susceptible for metal to contact metal with the thin film, thus creating 'clunking' noises. At normal warmer temp, the high oil viscosity is operating in its normal range, with a thicker film that protects metal from metal as it should, whereas with cold start up the emphasis is on as fast a flow of oil film as possible. Therefore it is impossible that in an auto gearbox it will make more noise when warmer. You're arguing based on your understanding of thicker viscosity at higher temp relative to colder temp, but in reality the warmer performance is the perfect viscosity at normal operating range. The only scenario I can think of when higher viscosity gearbox oil doesn't work too well in a gearbox is when it is too thick in a manual gearbox, where the synchros makes it hard to compress the oil film and change into another gear.
I honestly think you should put it on a dyno to make sure if it is even pinging or not, as it is fairly conclusive plus there are manual microphone equipment (not knock sensor) that can confirm it further. Its only around $100-120 and on dyno days its barely $50-70! :D
Oils get thinner when warmed up.
That isn't what I meant at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
With the Multigrade oil that we use today, the Viscosity rating is self adjusted for different operating temperatures. Compared to an SAE Grade oil, which as you said gets thinner when warmed, with the Multi-grade especially synthetic oils with wide-ranging Winter vs Warm rating (eg. 5W-40), the oil's specification ensures that it adjusts itself thin enough for cold start up, whereas instead of thinning it will thicken up enough relatively to still keep protecting the metal.
For a 5w-40 oil, it is still thicker at 5 at -18C than it is at 40 at 100C. The ratings show that it has the same viscosity as a SAE5 oil at -18C and SAE40 oil at 100C.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omotesando
My oil pressure gauge reads high when cold, and low when warm for the same idle RPM, which means the oil thins out as the temperature increases.
Is there any specific gear that the sound is more noticable in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omotesando
I think we will agree to disagree. I have access to a dyno, and a very competitent workshop including people whom build some of the fastest cars in the world. For example, our track car makes near on 400awkw, plus I have been building engines with my dad since I was about 6, though they were V8's and have also done a few manual to auto conversions for drag purposes in my time. Plus my last engine was an RB25DET that produced about 300rwkw, and NO KNOCK ON A PLUG AND PLAY TUNE, let alone a multi-million dollar company whom have/should have tested these things at length. And again, why the hell should I spend my time on a dyno when Honda should have done this already...
And, if you knew anything about knock, then you would know that factory sensors are not capable of 100% detection as you claim. That is just plain stupid and arrogant and completely misleading to anyone reading this thread.
You are also comparing manual and automatic gearbox's in your comments above, unless for some reason auto's now have syncros...:p Comparing the operation of these is like comparing a lemon to a strawberry, they operate differently, they have different inherent characteristics and have different inherent weaknesses and problems.
And last time I checked, engine and gearbox oils get thinner when warmer...with respect to start up and cold oils, yes these do not flow as well as when warmer, however, should clearances not be to the level they should, when the warmer oil in either gearbox or engine purposes, the misalgnment or incorrect clearances become more evident. For example, old engines usually where the valve guides, in order to decrease oil burn people use a thicker oil to reduce the likelihood of oil ingestion through the valve guides, same principle. Also, oil ingestion can cause knock, as it significantly lowers the in cylinder octane level. Further, poor clearances, which are built into other engines, reduce the chance of knock on lean mixtures, whereas tight or low clearance engines, such as what Honda build, are more susceptible to knock on lean mixtures or where other factors such as incorrect gearing come into play.
Correct aarong. You will also find, that an engine with tight clearances, will read higher oil pressure than an engine built with less attention to tolerances such as a Holden engine...(this is obvoiously with the same oil...)Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
I got contacted by the same guy(heinz) and no I dont think you will get anything in writing. I think this kind of communication is a stall manouvre,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobjones
but let me know if you hear anything more about this issue. We all paid good money for this vehicle and they are treating us like SH......
I have a 09 Euro Auto and don't have this 'pinging' noise that most of you are talking about. .. So far we have done 3500km and to be honest I couldn't be happier with the car.
I know it seems like Honda are drawing out the process but unfortunatly developing solutions to problems takes time.
Firstly they need enough examples to identify a pattern in the problem. It may reveal that the problems are only occuring between build dates X and Y or only Auto's...
Once they can establish a patterm they can look at the manufacturing processes within those dates to see if something had changed (parts supplier, software revision etc).....
In todays vehicles we shouldn't hear pinging because as soon as the knock sensor detects knock frequencies the ECU should be reducing the timing which will remove the knock.... It just concerns me that you guys can hear it and it is getting worse. To me it seems that the Knock Sensor isn't doing its job or it is something else that is making the noise.
Given that the engine is a carryover from the previous model I would imagine the knock setup is the same..
Am really curious to see what Honda do to fix your problems..
it should be thicker when temperature rises as someone has mentioned.. tahts the whole idea of multigrade oil. this property does deteriorate over time and tthats when it needs changingQuote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
not too sure on the 2nd bit abt ur oil pressure gauge..
Nope, multigrade oil just means that it can perform like a SAE5 oil at -18C and SAE40 oil at 100C. It doesn't mean that it thickens when the temperature increases. If it thickens when the temperature increases, then why do you run you engine to warm the oil up before you drain it out when changing engine oil? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by boleh
I've got a 09 Lux Auto with 650k on the clock and have not had this pinging issue yet. I'm using 95.
Keep at the dealer mate and good luck resolving the issue.
I have in writing that they guarantee for life the engine and gearbox as long as I own the car. But that does not solve this issue nor the rattle in the parcel shelf, that exibits from going over bumps and nothing to do with the stereo or bass...Quote:
Originally Posted by jbowly
when is your build date? Maybe this is related to some faulty component prior to your build date. Those of you who get this problem, could you also check your build date?Quote:
Originally Posted by imo
We have also experienced the pinging with our new Accord Euro Auto. We have had it back to our dealer twice now, the last time they reset the computer but the problem is still occuring and they still can't give us an answer.
We have only ever used Premium Unleaded (98 and 95) from Shell and BP.
If anyone has any updates I would be grateful. We are currently seeking warranty in writing beyond the 3 yr standard as we are concerned about the damage this could be doing to our vehicle. The car has now done 5,500 kms.
Have any of you with the pinging problem actually made a complaint to the ACCC? If they get enough of them they might force Honda to act.
http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index...Id/54217#h2_38
1200Km's here (09 Lux) - still no pinging
a) an annoying rattle from the little silver insert on the drinks cover in the center console which is damn annoying (better fix @ 1000k service tomorrow)
b) boot doesn't want to catch unless really slammed - assume just an adjustment issue.
Beyond those two - all good
Build Date is: No idea - couldn't find a plate or anything in the engine bay?!:eek:
Just adjust the rubber stopper on the boot. Turn it clockwise a half turn on each side and the boot will close easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by stik79
OK found out my build date - 18/07/08 (was on service summary page ;))
My biuld date is June 2008...and rattles like a ghost with chains...
Mine is a July 08 build,(couldn't find a day) and no pining, no rattles no nothing...
Curious to see when other build dates were..
My is 05 2008
Look buddy... see my pic and u know what a serious person I am and it shows I know what I am talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
Thickness = Viscosity
SAE40 more viscous than 5.
Mine is also a July 08, CU2 Lxry auto. 2300k on the clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by EH VTi
I only use RON 98.
It has a slight 'lumpy steering' problem to the right. (hope it goes away?...)
No pinging though. But...
The acceleration is slower than normal (well, slightly better than a shopping trolley).
Could it be than Honda have decided to tune down their engines to 'mask' the pinging problem ?!
I used to drive a 2003 CL9, and the acceleration on that one (no mods) was constantly drawing remarks from my friends!
The engine is CU2, supposedly an improvement, more power, more compression, and even after taking into account the 100 or so more kilos that the CU2 has, it should not have such a noticeably slower acceleration !
On the CU2, you floor it and nothing happens! I cannot spin the wheels from a stand still, with the VSA and A/C off, in any setting (D,S, man shifting or not)
And what the #$%@ is the deal with the kick down shift button behind the accelerator pedal ?!
If the car was tuned properly, there would not be a need for one... any other cars have this ?....
Anyone has a similar experience with their new CU2 ?
I can't believed I missed your post. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by boleh
And no, you are not right. SAE5 at -18 șC is thicker/more viscous than SAE40 at 100 șC
I agree with aarong, oil only going thinner with temp is up bcos the molacul of the oil heat up and have more energy to move and more space between. Then the oil bcom thinner. This is my first time to heard that oil get thicker with temperautre go up. not make sense. Thanks
May08 build Euro Standard 6MT. (BP Ultimate98 fuel always)
I had a reply from Heinz at Honda Aust and he said the ping is an aknowledged problem, does not appear to be a answer currently but to
drop the car back at the dealer to check if its anything else.
Other than that Im extremely satisfied with the vehicle.
May 08 Build Auto 8000kms..............No pinging for me..........
Hmm, interesting post over at Acurazine TSX forum in a thread about the same problem the US TSX owners who are having the same issue (Acura TSX is the US version of our Accord Euro). It's from someone who goes by the name of "Acura Cert MASTER TECH". Past posts from him seem to back up that name and are useful and informative.
"I quickly read through all these posts, and just wanted to give you a heads up that Acura IS fully aware of this noise.
We had a guy in at work three times for this noise, and were finally able to duplicate it on the third time. I've been able to make it happen pretty much on demand on a flat/slight incline road, in SS mode in 2nd gear, going between 20-25 mph, with my other foot on the brake slighty. (Holy run on sentence, sorry). I drove two other 09 TSXs, and was able to get the same noise to happen, just not as loudly.
The customer's TSX had close to 10,000 miles on it, the other two that I compared to had 4 miles, and about 1000 miles."
There is more so follow link and scroll down to post #72
http://tsx.acurazine.com/forums/show...=684180&page=2
what is molacul?Quote:
Originally Posted by Accord Basic
i think he means 'molecule'
Yeah, I gave up after the first line. :zip:Quote:
Originally Posted by boleh
It's a combination of the word "Mola", which is a latin word for "millstone" and "cul" which the latin word for bum. So there you have it! It's a "millstone bum".
Hi Guys,
I am taking my 08 non Euro accord back to the dealer next week for the same issue. My engine is also pinging but a lot less with BP Ulitmate. With unleaded 91 it pings all the time, but with 98 randomly only few times a day.
Has anyone managed to resolve the issue?
[edit] Brain fart - non euro - ignore me ;)
Can anyone advise what's the status of the pinging or gearbox issue?? Has Honda come up with any form of solution yet?
Nothing yet.
ummm... I believe you WILL get pinging all the time if you use 91RON fuel coz the engine was designed to run on 95RON minimum?Quote:
Originally Posted by snajper
that's the reply I wrote before I realised he said "non euro"Quote:
Originally Posted by nickxau
i went to a mechanic today and he told me the pinging noise is due to the fact that the octane levels in the petrol or whatever were too low. so he told me to go fill up using premium unleaded or the more expensive "good" petrol. I'm gonna try this out when i fill up my car 2moro, hopefully there wont be any pinging anymore... im driving an EK1 99 so might be a different problem... lol
One thing that bothers me is that I am using 98RON instead of 91RON (recommended for NON euro accord) and it still pings.
I have taken the car to our workshop that builds our race engines etc and they believe that it is not pinging but more likely to be the timing chain tensioner, which on Honda's is hydraulic. It happens more often than not on take off due to the timing chain going from a "slack" state at idle, to tensioned state upon acceleration, and possibly due to light acceleration there is insufficient oil pressure to have the tensioner work correctly. This is also the case in reverse when you accelerate, and then the transmission in the auto's changes up a gear when you have backed off from acceleration and the chain goes from a "tight or tensioned state" to a relatively "slack" state as the engine revs drop. Additionally, upon HIGH rpm, possibly due to a fault in the tensioner, it is unable to maintain tension at high RPM thus resulting in a similar but not as constant or audible at higher RPM.
Now please remember this is from a knowledgable source, but must disclaim that this is only from driving around in the car, as in 3 mechanics all in the car and taking turns driving, the engine has not been touched, in fact the bonnet was only opened to see if there was a timing chain only cover which there is not. Due to the way Honda are playing games no one but Honda will touch anything under the bonnet due to their fine print with all warranties.
I am going into Honda Service tomorrow to get the parcel shelf re-fixed, despite being inconvenienced again I cannot get a loan car cause they are all booked, so more time off and not making money, in the end this car has cost me alot of time and mental anguish.
EDIT: the car has ALWAYS been run on 98 Ron either BP Ultimate or Shell V-Power, but I fail to see why I should run this when it was "designed" for 95-Ron, piss poor effort by Honda and I have vowed never to buy another Honda product, not even a generator...
hmmm my parcel shelf has developed a combination of what sounds like someone rapidly flicking it to creaking under body load :S strangely if it gets hot enough it wont do it so I assume a spot weld has come appart somewhere and with heat the two pieces of metal wherever they are expand to the point where they fit together again :S
Same thing bob?
I agree with the timing belt tensioner theory as it sounds to me to come from the front of the engine (I've only caught it 2-3 times in 5000k's now :S) (although can't figure why it would apply to the auto only - unless the extra hydraulic load of an auto affects the pressure in that tensioner?)
Yeah rear parcel shelf if a loose spot weld, they fixed it once...and low and behold it is back. Its a reported problem I believe and well known, but my dealer needed to but someone in the boot to find it for about half an hour they say...but it took me all of 5 minutes...if you look up technician as they like to be called, the subtext is "unqualified monkeys" which most of them are...
Bobjones: If your source's correct, a change of timing chain tensioner will fix the problem?? Can this be advised to Honda for them to take it into consideration??
I got a call from Ken, Honda Australia, last Friday, I think several of you also contacted him before, and was told there will be a fix coming late of Feb.
He also told me my dealer will call me by then and arrange it.
So don't worry guys, they finally come to a solution and our euro is getting perfect.....
The problem "lovesil" is that this has NOT been diagnosed by pulling anything off the engine and has only been done by listening and driving the car by someone with a minimum of 10 years experience building race engines (that include Honda engines). Thus it is neither definitive nor 100% possible that this is the only cause and thus a 100% solution is unkown. I just took it to them to reduce my fear of the engine ceasing at highway speeds resulting in either an accident or destruction of the entire driveline whcih could result in injury.
You can say what you want to Honda, the dealers especially have NFI, but until THEY diagnose the problem and THEY come up with a solution, there will not be one and YOU have to sit there an live with it. Maybe they should hire some of those F1 guys that are not doing much to fix it or atleast help with quality control???
OZEuromania, do you have this in writing, as unfortunately I will believe it when I see it. Late February would be fine, but I have my doubts...
Yes, I agree, but I think you can give him a call if you want it in writing. I probably would do that as well when I get back from leave overseas...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobjones
Guys, fyi I have had a CU2 auto Lux since July 2008 and currently have approx 14,000km on the clock. I have been to Honda several times with this noise. Same response as others - there is a noise, Honda are aware of it and are working on a fix. I have emailed and lettered Honda Australia today to ensure I am on their radar if and when a fix arrives. I copied it to the service manager at Honda North, who have had a few attempts at fixing it. Will let you know if I get any response.
Hey, i went to shell and filled up a full tank of "V-power" type fuel and the pinging noise is almost all gone (had a little bit at 5th gear). Might have to let the petrol filter all the way through for it to be pingless.
"unleaded petrol only" my a55
The only smart thing to do is to fill up with 98RON fuel until they come up with the solution.
I just keeping using 98ron, probably cause that is what I always use. Its back at the dealer today getting the other issues fixed. I just keep mentioning the engine rattles still...
Service manager at the dealer emailed me back today:
"I will inform you as soon as we have a solution from Honda, hopefully towards end of February".
dropping my car in tomorrow
fingers crossed they find out what my rattling sound is and can repair...