how so very true. area under the curve always counts more in most case than not (unless its an all out drag assault and u sit @ ur peak power all the time)
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how so very true. area under the curve always counts more in most case than not (unless its an all out drag assault and u sit @ ur peak power all the time)
Does torque not make HP,yes it does so the one with 119kw should run more MPH even with a slower ET.Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
ALLMTR996
In this instance, the one with more power has less torque.Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLMTR996
That is it's mean torque & it's peak torque.
Torque is HP at a particular rpm, the higher the HP & the lower the rpm the greater the torque.
The 110kw makes a lot more power than the 119kw car for 90% of the rev range.
To be honest, Yonas's car would be hard pressed to pull the skin off a potato, let alone impress on the 1/4 mile.
So that EG6 has some very different modifications compared to Yonas' engine to achieve much greater mid-range but sacrificed top end power?
I am just quite confused that can't Yonas' engine be tuned with more mid-range or what you did was the optimum solution already?
I'm sure Adrain will explain why this is, I would say its in the cam timing.But it also could be one of his bang for buck final drive setups in the one that ran 13's and better tires.Quote:
Originally Posted by xtercii
ALLMTR996
Just noticed something that this thread started in Nov 2003 and now its getting people interested.
ALLMTR996
Drag needs mid-top end power + torque. If the majority of your torque is over vtec, you should be getting better times than a car with lower (but broader) torque/power.Quote:
Originally Posted by xtercii
Watch this vid of my drag last week in b16a and tell me where in video my revs drop under 6000rpm. There is no use for low end torque on dragstrip. In my opinion, because Yonas's car makes so much power at very peak of rev-range, it isnt put to good use.
IMO, a good time in a street FWD honda (my case a delsol below 15.000) should have consistent torque above 6000rpm with peak power around 7000-7500rpm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cKzrLl6jKo
and I also don't know all this about standard bottom ends...
Its all very misleading in trying to boast how little was done to get the the power up.
The B16A makes power from the heads, why don't describe the amount of work that went into the heads to make these sorts of power?
yonas had stock head IIRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twincam16
These two comments are contradictory. No?Quote:
Originally Posted by Twincam16
Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
ALso when i ran the car , my rear disc was warp and still pull 96 mph
Every 1 cycle turn , it brakes by it self. too bad I sold the whole b16a set up already , im still itching to run it down the 1/4 mile.
stock headQuote:
Originally Posted by xtercii
stock port
that explain it ?
Don't worry, i'm sure the new owner will give it a good bashing ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by EG5
Everyone a simple way to understant to make light of what toda is saying..Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
If you own or have access to a coppy of nfs underground 2 try this.
1. build a supra 100 percent.
2. then go to tune.
3. peak everything to do with power right up last bar on tuning the highest (turbo and engine)
4. run on the dyno and look at the graph. (high power+torque in high rpm range)
5. test it on the quater mile, take not of your time.
Now start again but with do all of the above but with step 3 and 4 do this
3. try and run the power up from the 1st bar to a level and try and keep it as flat as possible.
4. dyno (your power and torque will be lower. but the power and torque should not tapper off and will be very flat)
when you do you quater you will realise you have done a faster time much easier. but you will probably have a slower mph, maybe 10+. this is because the car 2 isnt designed for higher speed but getting up to a high speed faster then car 1 and the quicker and more time you can spend at a higher speed then car 1 helps you cover more distance faster
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthr...9kw#post884576Quote:
Originally Posted by EG5
A 3 angle valve job + CTR cams etc is hardly a stock head. I still also have some doubt around not being polished but you can have the benefit of the doubt.
Not bagging you or anything but the reality of getting this much power from a 1.6 needs to be clarified.
um, what honda leaves the factory without a 3 angle valve job?
and e240 - the "power" you talk of is only a dyno number... on a "happy happy joy joy" dyno...
does that clarify it for you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
Tinky, so you're saying that the 119kw is not real? Then why keep emphasizing it in a number of posts?
Anyway, Toda's dyno have seen a number of B16as for its reading to be compared across B16as. So when a claim is done to have 119kws on a stock block :rolleyes: when other standard B16As (and tuned) on the same Dyno have done far less, you can't say that claim is just a "happy happy joy joy" claim. Especially not when you're claiming bragging rights with it.
does that clarify it for you?
i got 120kW on the same dyno (B20VTEC), i ran 14.5 @ 95mph on same drag strip.
seems to be fairly consistent?
what are these other standard B16A's you speak of? do they make 100kW?
which ones have I/H/E ITR IM & TB and CTR cams + springs and Hondata?
cant find ANY posts in this thread mentioning B16A's tuned on Toda Au's dyno... except EG5's one...
care to point them out?
Not everyone from Toda posts their results here.Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
Based on your post, do you consider having CTR cams and springs as stock?
Maybe I'm just picky ya..:wave:
seriously, what are you talking about?
the engine is NOT stock, that is WHY it makes "119kW"...
if you really want to be picky - the engine should not be classified as a B16A? should it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
Alright... thats it from me on this subjectQuote:
Originally Posted by EG5
our motor pulled 117 kw atw. This is a b18c7 but we manage 98MPH
post #142 has all the details,Quote:
Originally Posted by EG5
the head is stock.
if you think cams and springs make a head "not stock" then i guess we talk different languages...
to me - a head is stock untill its ports are hit with a die grinder...
Is it a ITR or CTR head?? or just a b16a head with CTR cams and such
it WAS a stock B16A, then it became a stock B16A with:
CTR cams
valve springs
ITR Intake manifold
ITR throttle body
BC 4-2-1 headers
Hondata s100 (tuned)
Yonas probably needs cam gears.
Easy way to show what I mean...
Yonas, PM me your rego number & I'll put the two cars over the top of each other...
More interesting is...
what did this motor make completely stock on that dyno?
and what's really going to complicate things is SAE correction. Final drive multiplication blah blah
I think we need to chillax, and take these results at face value.
Who cares really...
pm sentQuote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
damn this thread becomes crazy .
Ok... Now what I've been saying is a bit easier to understand
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/attachm...0&d=1164003436
Give that man a New... :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by ProECU
its easy to see that the red. makes better overall consistant power then the blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
:thumbsup: adrian
Yonas' tune needs timing to be addressed.
Troubleshooting is what a dyno should be used for, not for bragging rights.
i got 131.4hp on a dyno dynamics dyno at street torque in alice springs. i had a haltec ex6 ecu, 2 1/4" exhaust and ram pod
Yonas car has two vtec kicks, hectik.
The power curve is just awful, isn't it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ProECU
Timing won't do it... Already tried that.
Adjustable cam pulleys would probably help a lot, making it more like the other car.
Probably the binning the BC headers would also be a step in the right direction.
How about adjustable cam gear? Would that be more iimportant than the cam pulleys?
Im sure he meant cam gear :)
gear/pulley - they are the same, FFS!
and if i read that dyno chart right, would not the red torque curve be more desirable?
ot:also wouldnt you have to factor in the car that did 13.6 would have its final drive modified as oppose to yonas running a 4.44 final drive hence affecting the ET.
I was just typing the same thing up then looked at "last reply" ~ FD has a big impact too :)Quote:
Originally Posted by .::F[L]Y::.
I wouldnt mind seeing a torque and a/f curve
Adrain I think this is thread is going in the right direction as I have been talking to Dyno Dave and he said that both of you have always said peak power is useless if it lacks strong mid range power.Now these current 2 cars that are being talked about are 100% proof of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
ALLMTR996
How very wrong u are. Gears have teeth if u must and pulleys have nothing...Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
U cant have a cam pully because it has nothing to grip to and turn.
Cam gears have teeth for the belt OR chain to sit on :)
sorry to be off topic again...Quote:
Originally Posted by silver_screen
but even though you are RIGHT - you are still WRONG
http://home.exetel.com.au/tinkerbell/pulleypictures.jpg
we knew what he meant....move on!
Adrian, I dont think cam gears are gonna fix those 2 dips in the curve.
There is something else goin on there, it has to be igntion timing.
What did you do to timing in that area to test if that was the issue?
Ever consider "retarding" timing... you'd be suprised.
who did the valve job on yonas' head?
Incorrect usage of words :)
I know what you're saying,Quote:
Originally Posted by ProECU
FWIW, we tried both iginition retard & advance...
Also tried humps & dips in the timing at the problem area's with no great result though this did result in smoother power delivery than when the timing curve had a linear advance to peak.
The final curve ended up with a few small humps / dips.
Not pretty, but there wasn't much else that could be done.
Regarding mixtures,
Tried as lean as 13.5:1 & as rich as 11.5:1
FWIW, it liked it best at 12.3~12.4:1 WOT
IMO, there's other issues with that engine,
It's likley the cams are retarded & causing the lack of mid range & high peak.
This could be from material removed during head service & possible use of thinner head gasket.
No adjustable pulleys were available so it's only guess work.
Further to that, there may be an issue with the head on this motor.
In the past, we've had engines built elsewhere, come in to be tuned that have had a similar output charateristic.
When nothing worked to solve it including cam pulleys & the problem turned out to be the valve job in the head itself.
In any case, there's no fixing this one for now as I'm pretty sure that engine is no longer in the car... (Not sure, you'd have to ask Yonas)
Cheers
Adrian
:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
you don't save money with a cheap head job...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...u/IMGP0135.jpg
This is what I got with the same b16a motor/gearbox and head , ctr cams + valve springs , Type R IM + TB .The only difference : J's racing intake , JDM 4-1 header , spoon plug and play ecu. No adj cam gear are used.
This is before BC header , 70MM cai , and hondata s100.
Sounds like you are speaking for experience :zip:Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
ALLMTR996
dam i never thought of how the head gasket may affect timing. would it really make that much difference? i mean u lose timing but gain compression. am very curious how this may affect things when i do my minime.Quote:
This could be from material removed during head service & possible use of thinner head gasket.
btw: this thread is total pwnage!
...
To be honest, Yonas's car would be hard pressed to pull the skin off a potato, let alone impress on the 1/4 mile.
Don't worry, i'm sure the new owner will give it a good bashing ;)
it WAS a stock B16A, then it became a stock B16A with:
CTR cams
valve springs
ITR Intake manifold
ITR throttle body
BC 4-2-1 headers
Hondata s100 (tuned)
but even though you are RIGHT - you are still WRONG
you don't save money with a cheap head job...
luv it :thumbsup:
it is about 0.5 degrees retarded for every 20 thou of an inch removed...
but i never verified this figure independently, it was just what i was told by a person...
yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLMTR996
http://home.exetel.com.au/tinkerbell...CdynoOct06.jpg
shocking valve seat job according to my tuner(s)...
i am looking forwards to seeing what a "proper" multi-angle valve job does to that aweful torque drop over 5600rpm...
Normal for an engine dude. im suprised it even made 295nm
o'rly?
Dave, you love maths & geometry...Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
It's not linear on the retard when you remove metal ;)
OK, but isn't there a ballpark range?
Ofcourse it's not linear (ie cam profiles are eliptical), we're dealing with circular geometries, but I agree with Tinkerbell (although it pains me to admit it), the ratio of metal removed to retard conceptually is a linear measure.
Why do you suggest otherwise Adrian? What are we missing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
There is, but it is more than you've quoted.
Ball park guesses don't make for good engine building practice.
FWIW, we always set cams to the correct LCA when building engines.
This can't be done by rule of thumb.
A good example is the rule of thumb used by a certain US cam manufacturer regarding metal removed etc.
This retard rule of thumb was their recommended method of setting correct cam timing.
Needless to say, using their method exactly, the engine performed rather poorly.
Time was wasted at the customers request playing with the timing on the dyno, with no real result.
The question was asked of the cam manufacturer, & after some time, they provided us with the cam LCA's & lift @ TDC figures. We were able to set the cams precisely for the customer & with good result. (Where they ended up would have taken a very long time to arrive at on the dyno.
Though you can use rules of thumb, in this instance I disagree strongly.
Cam timing is critical & aught to be afforded the proper time & effort to get the results you're after.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProECU
You didn't miss missing anything Evan; you answered your own question, and were at pains to contradict yourself.
any1 got a print out of a stock b16 that they can post up?
220,000km and worn valve guides
http://www.nvrfgt.co.nz/gallery2/d/3115-2/DSC03730.jpg
http://www.nvrfgt.co.nz/gallery2/d/3119-2/DSC03732.jpg
Obviously that is an EF8 SiR although there wasn't enough space on the sheet thus the Si not SiR
Damn can't wait to get my own dyno >_< not like there's any space to put one unless I get the dyno packs
wow that was quick lol
what mods did u have btw?
Just that intake pipe and filter
But that shinny red valve cover is really where all the power came from...
It was so beautiful almost mesmerizing to look at, just couldn't help but stare...
So regret selling it to that ****ing drop kick... now it's a wreck, brings a tear to the eye
lol well thats a good result
any1 else with a stock b16 dyno print out? just wanna see the differences in the power/torque curve to compare with my run with the tsuchinoko intake
i read all 19 pages trying to find anyone with a completly stock B16a2 dyno sheet lolz, i wanna know what people are getting on stock B16a2 on dyno dynamics machine 4th gear anyone have one please ? =]
^^^sorry can't see it at work... i'm real keen to see it if its a stock dyno... mind posting the figure??
Nah mate sorry its not stock it got 108.7kw
Stock will be about 88 - 90.
wat mods do u have ek4-guy
?
I got 109.7 kw with IHE and hondata stage 2 at revzone nunawading
Toda headers, injen intake and i think fuji exhaust.Quote:
Originally Posted by ekhybrid
^ ahah mad i was going to do the same. i have the injen intake waiting to save for the fuji n toda =)
looks promising
Yep dats it the system is a RM01a aswellQuote:
Originally Posted by SLOWEGG
Im thinking about cams and Hondata next
hey guys if any of you have seen high octane 5, they bought a 1990 crx si-R had k&n Air Filter and a exhaust (most likely catback) they dynoed it and made 104kw atw, is that bs? or is that on the flywheel..
Its possible but every dyno is different. USA dynos read higher apparently.
Hi-Octane are NZ though and their dynos are on par with ours.
Ketzel is a funny guy.... anyone watch the Banzai orange crx doing 11s hahahaha