[Euro] Hondata Update

As the title says. My 2 cents is that maybe they are too much "engineers" wanting a complete and perfect set of products to release and not enough "businessmen" to sell what is ready to go. This assumes that the stage 1 and 2 (?) will not affected by changes required for the later versions. I would assume not but we don't know precisely how they have built it do we.

The real problem, as I see it, is that they are not providing enough feedback to potential customers so here we are all making guesses and getting frustrated or even worse going off to find something else instead. Theirs may be better but if you can't buy it then it just doesn't exist.

ive given up hope with JTUNED and hondata as far as im concerned
by the time it comes out, current owners of euros would either be selling their euros to move on to something else, or it will be too expensive, or the new euro will be out before the reflash is....

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Originally Posted by stephen8512

ive given up hope with JTUNED and hondata as far as im concerned
by the time it comes out, current owners of euros would either be selling their euros to move on to something else, or it will be too expensive, or the new euro will be out before the reflash is....

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That is the problem alright. Im on the cusp of a new lease or I could release my current '05 model. Im running out of time waiting.

Also theres an issue with the "discount for early adopters" when its released. I would rather wait 5-6 weeks after release to get REAL world comments/results from Hondata customers to see how good it is. Then I would have to pay a premium for not jumping on the unknown performance release special bandwagon.
I would then elect to give it a miss is I could not get it at the same price.

My 2 cents

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Originally Posted by stephen8512

ive given up hope with JTUNED and hondata as far as im concerned
by the time it comes out, current owners of euros would either be selling their euros to move on to something else, or it will be too expensive, or the new euro will be out before the reflash is....

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bingo

Now I am back in Oz I had the opportunity to call James today about the reflash. He sounds like a top bloke and really enthusiastic about the release. Realistically we are looking at 4 weeks until the pre-order stage (with photos, clips and dyno charts avail) and then the actual hardware and bolt ons will be ready for fitment in about 8 weeks time. The software for the reflash is ready - the wait is mainly for the hardware to conduct the reflash.

James had some interesting things to say about the revised intake (uses a high quality K&N pod). From what I understand it is going to be in a similar position to the injen (behind the bumper and out of the engine bay) but rotated differently. Apparently there is a huge difference in power shown on the dyno by pointing the pod towards the bumper. The induction pipe will be 3 inches. They have conducted lots of testing and found this to be the best design. Sounds very good, however, I think I am sticking with my Icebox for now as I don't want the induction note of a pod style filter and I have just replaced the filter with ITG. James said it is ok if I stay with the Icebox but the output is not as good as the new design.

Not sure if this is subject to change but he said the separate pricing will be $1850 for the 4 muffler exhaust including the high flow cat (which can be purchased seperately for $450). Headers will be $1200 and the intake $450. Reflash will be $1000. There will be some opening specials for the group order (I think he said 10% discount but please don't hold me to that as it was a long conversation and lots to remember).

I asked James how much it will cost to reflash the car back to the "standard" flash (lets say you want to remove all the items and sell the car). It will be $150 :thumbsup: Sounds alright to me. James confirmed that the standard flash can use 95 ron which is also what I wanted to hear.

On another positive note - there will be a few Honda dealers around the country that will be reselling the reflash and apparently honouring warranty in that respect (but only honoured at those dealers). That is one of the reasons why he wants everything perfect before release.

With the stage 4 flash James said there is a dramatic difference compared to stock. I can recall him saying it is much smoother and "power on demand". Very nice. James really recommends aftermarket headers (but not the DC style - I think he said too small primaries and stock headers are better!) and aftermarket exhaust to realise the full potential of the flash.

Please don't be upset if I have got a few of the details incorrect - I did my best to remember the main points. Obviously there is more detail to come. The call was enough to renew my excitement in this :p

Sounds good. The bits are a bit more exy than I thought though. $1850 for an exhaust & $1200 for headers, OUCH! Thats $3K just for a full exhaust system. It better be damn good. The reflash price is what I expected though.
Since he'll be reselling to some dealers I understand why it's taken so long. Be nice to put a post up every once and while though to let everyone know. I know he's very busy so the Internet is prolly last on his cards.

I'm hangin out for the auto vs manual dyno's to see how far behind they fall.

thanks for the update yfin, I'm sure heaps of euro owners are excited to finally hear some details.

I think $1000 for the reflash is quite reasonable

you didn't get a chance to ask him about the standalone ecu he mentioned on his website?

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Originally Posted by BiLL|z0r

Sounds good. The bits are a bit more exy than I thought though. $1850 for an exhaust & $1200 for headers, OUCH! Thats $3K just for a full exhaust system. It better be damn good. The reflash price is what I expected though.
Since he'll be reselling to some dealers I understand why it's taken so long. Be nice to put a post up every once and while though to let everyone know. I know he's very busy so the Internet is prolly last on his cards.

I'm hangin out for the auto vs manual dyno's to see how far behind they fall.

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Pricing isn't too bad. Hopefully the discount is the 10% I mentioned (or hopefully more) for the pre-order. $1850 sounds a lot for the exhaust but that includes the high flow cat which costs $450. You also need to compare dual exhaust pricing - not single. I had a look on TSX parts to see a rough idea on dual stainless steel exhaust pricing and the Comptech Stainless is $1210 AUD (plus shipping to Oz) which has 1 less muffler. Add shipping, add the cat and the Jtune price doesn't look unreasonable. But of course there are cheaper dual exhausts out there too.

What I don't really understand is why the headers cost $1200 - but we need to remember there are JDM stainless steel headers available for over $2000 (eg Maxim Works).

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Originally Posted by Chris_F

thanks for the update yfin, I'm sure heaps of euro owners are excited to finally hear some details.

I think $1000 for the reflash is quite reasonable

you didn't get a chance to ask him about the standalone ecu he mentioned on his website?

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Nah I didn't ask about the standalone ECU. Give him a call.

Good to hear some genuine feedback, sounds positive, lets hope all goes well :)

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Originally Posted by Pumped

Good to hear some genuine feedback, sounds positive, lets hope all goes well :)

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Yeah.hope there are no more delays.

sounds good cant wait for the dyno sheet

ok well this sounds good,

waiting for the hardware to do the reflash is fairly important...

back on the analogy wagon its hard for the worker to build something if he dont have any tools :)

revives *still eagerly awaiting reflash* comment :)

Sorry to drag up an old thread but shouldnt we be ready for the reflash now ?? Middle of Feb was the date we were given in the middle of Jan. Also could someone please clarify the process required to get the reflash ? Do we have to take our car to the shop or can we just send the ECU away and it gets flashed and sent back to us ??? Hopefully it will be the later because otherwise I cant really get the car down to brissy any time soon...

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Originally Posted by Gibbo

Sorry to drag up an old thread but shouldnt we be ready for the reflash now ?? Middle of Feb was the date we were given in the middle of Jan. Also could someone please clarify the process required to get the reflash ? Do we have to take our car to the shop or can we just send the ECU away and it gets flashed and sent back to us ??? Hopefully it will be the later because otherwise I cant really get the car down to brissy any time soon...

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Everything is ready to go ex.headers.group buy will be approx.2 weeks away.You send the ECU away with your keys i think and they reflash it and send it back to you.Only catch is you're without your car for a few days.:)

The Imobiliser, Key and ECU need to be shipped without these three items it cannot be done.

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Originally Posted by Peekay34

The Imobiliser, Key and ECU need to be shipped without these three items it cannot be done.

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Yeah Peekay34 you're right,i forgot to inc. the immobiliser.:o

Good things come to those who wait.....
We have waited.....
It better be good!!!!!

Wil there be some sort of DIY on the removal or location of the immmobiliser and the ECU ??? I am so keen to get this i can hardly wait... The stage two kit requires a header and exhaust doesnt it ? What are the approx power gains and gear needed for each stage ?

The results will be posted on a site soon and yes there should be instructions on how to remove. I know the figures but have been sworn to secrecy. I have the intake and ecu package on my car without the exhaust and headers at the moment ...the pick up alone well let me say sweeeettt.

Im turning green with envy Peekay ... :)

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Originally Posted by Gibbo

Wil there be some sort of DIY on the removal or location of the immmobiliser and the ECU ??? I am so keen to get this i can hardly wait... The stage two kit requires a header and exhaust doesnt it ? What are the approx power gains and gear needed for each stage ?

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I've heard 150+ ATW with stage 4 which is IHE and reflash!!!:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Gibbo

The stage two kit requires a header and exhaust doesnt it ?

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Stage 1 is reflash
Stage 2 is reflash and intake
Stage 3 is reflash, intake and exhuast (inc high flow cat)
Stage 4 is reflash, intake, exhaust and headers

Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Peekay34

The results will be posted on a site soon and yes there should be instructions on how to remove. I know the figures but have been sworn to secrecy. I have the intake and ecu package on my car without the exhaust and headers at the moment ...the pick up alone well let me say sweeeettt.

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so u using the comptech air intake? or a jtune one?

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Originally Posted by BusterSonic12

so u using the comptech air intake? or a jtune one?

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I think Peekay is using JTUNE which is modified K&N typhoon.Am i right?

No it is their own setup only K&N about is the filter...

so you using jtuned intake?

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Originally Posted by Peekay34

No it is their own setup only K&N about is the filter...

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Thats correct.

Now the end of Feb... ??? Still no release date ??? and the other question is will they just send out the components you purchase and allow DIY of them ? Reading things on the Hondata site I get the impression that they have to fit all the bits and pieces and tune it etc... Hope this isn't the case - I can afford the gear but not the cost of them installing it - i can do it myself.

bump ?

I was assuming the parts could be fitted by authorised companys around the country. The ECU/key/immobiliser needs to be sent to James but can hardly send the whole car for fitment of the goodies. Knowing James I doubt he'd let just anyone install the new mods since so much he's put so much work into developing it.

i want this computer its taking to long

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Originally Posted by mr747

i want this computer its taking to long

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Indeed. It's bloody March already!

I think they might find the initial sales quite slow due to this stagnant release date - people are becomming "over" the whole Hondata thing i think. In saying that, I am waiting patiently for the release but would also like to be "rewarded" for waiting with a fairly substantial discount or some sort of concession (eg. Free postage on goods etc...)

Rewarded! LOL
Good on ya.
Somebody goes to the trouble to make something work for your car...
& all you can do is complain....
Fair dinkum! & then expect some sort of reward... LOL

Anyhoo...
It'll all be released real soon.
I have a link to some pretty interesting dyno graphs.

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Originally Posted by TODA AU

Rewarded! LOL
Good on ya.
Somebody goes to the trouble to make something work for your car...
& all you can do is complain....
Fair dinkum! & then expect some sort of reward... LOL

Anyhoo...
It'll all be released real soon.
I have a link to some pretty interesting dyno graphs.

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It is frustration and if you knew the number of incorrect release dates that have been thrown around regarding this product (over more than 2 years - not just months) you might appreciate why some people are not happy.

As long as the release is perfect I couldn't give a hoot. With the end in sight we will all be rewarded with something to consider for tuning the CL9.

All iwas saying it is good PR on hondatas part to keep potential customers happy because at the moment that is all we are "potential" - a small loss like free postage is chicken feed when you consider the suppossed amount of money invested and the rate at which they need to recoupe their capital invested in this project. Dude I am not expecting something for nothing but by the same token a bit of good will is the best advertising money can buy... food for thought....

I understand the frustration.
That's fair enough.
It'll be out soon enough.
I'd say the problem isn't the late release, it's you lot geeing each other up.
I was taking the piss on my previous post so don't take it to heart.
As for keeping potential customers happy...
If the product works, you'll be happy.
If not, well lets face it... It'll stop selling.

Tis all good Toda - Hey as a suggestion would the traders be interested in showcasing the available products for the vehicle specific forums eg. CL9, Civic etc.. so we get a bit of an idea who sells what for our cars ?? (handy for us out of towners...)

The Website with the sales information should be out soon. I understand your frustration but Yfin I need to correct you has been going for approx 16-18 months.... :-) .

sorry but it has been too long and unfortunately some people who were interested now find themselves ready to upgrade their cars.
if it had been 12 months ago fair enough but in 08 we will see the all new euro.

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Originally Posted by TODA AU

Rewarded! LOL
Good on ya.
Somebody goes to the trouble to make something work for your car...
& all you can do is complain....
Fair dinkum! & then expect some sort of reward... LOL

Anyhoo...
It'll all be released real soon.
I have a link to some pretty interesting dyno graphs.

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Well it's not like they are going through all that trouble and giving it to us for free. We still have to pay them money now don't we?

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Originally Posted by sodaz

Well it's not like they are going through all that trouble and giving it to us for free. We still have to pay them money now don't we?

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Thats right. A big percentage of the delay has been the manufacturer of the exhaust and headers. It costs a lot of time and money developing sending to a manufacturer to do their bit overseas ship it back see what they have done like or disklike modify ship back again and this has happended numerous times. So the "I must have a discount because I have been sooo inconvenienced" yet you still get to drive and enjoy your car even though what real inconvenience have you suffered?????. Think about this I have had a car I can't leave anywhere due to the imobiliser being disabled, I have an ECU that has been hanging out in my footwell for nigh on 12 months plus, I have lost my car in real terms for months. I beleive the only one who can claim inconvenience is myself, from a car point of view and the others involved be it small or large.

They are just waiting for some stuff to come back from overseas and then you will be able to buy the stuff, once that is here James I believe will making his offer to purchase it if you want it. Remember only a very small percentage of this stuff is sold by forums.

The exhaust and system and the intake sounds great. They are not cheap to produce or develop. When they are perfect they will be released and not before. They produce more power than any other system that has been researched on the market today without taking away the look of the car and sound. So your car won't drone.

Well have a nice but not to hot or steamy day.... and remain calm it is very very close.....

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Originally Posted by Gibbo

Tis all good Toda - Hey as a suggestion would the traders be interested in showcasing the available products for the vehicle specific forums eg. CL9, Civic etc.. so we get a bit of an idea who sells what for our cars ?? (handy for us out of towners...)

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It's kinda hard to do that without looking like an add or advertorial.
You'd have to get permission from the mods as it's really borderline on the rules.

Peekay, I want to see the car perform on the strip!!!:D :D I want times :D

great to hear its not far away keep up the good work

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Originally Posted by EuroAccord13

Peekay, I want to see the car perform on the strip!!!:D :D I want times :D

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I don't do the strip..... I take care of my car and don't thrash it. Ask Yfin what he thinks he has seen the car.

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Originally Posted by Peekay34

I don't do the strip..... I take care of my car and don't thrash it. Ask Yfin what he thinks he has seen the car.

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Your car has already been used as a test car. It has already been thrashed. :)

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Originally Posted by aaronng

Your car has already been used as a test car. It has already been thrashed. :)

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Quite true, quite true.

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Originally Posted by Peekay34

I don't do the strip..... I take care of my car and don't thrash it. Ask Yfin what he thinks he has seen the car.

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I don't doubt the power your car already possesses, but it'll be nice to see it in terms of performance and not just on paper... I mean.. The number of hours the car has been on the dyno easily pushes the car much further than say running the car 3 times on the strip... So what is a few runs on the strip?:cool:

Peekay's car doesn't have headers and exhaust fitted at the moment - so now is not the time for him to do a 1/4 even if he wanted to. I don't think the 1/4 has to be harsher on the car than street driving.

Given the extra power you probably are not going to be able to take off from much more than 2500rpm. So the take off is easy (relatively speaking) on the car. I don't think it will be a situation where you will want to launch the car and be harsh on the drivetrain.

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Originally Posted by Peekay34

I don't do the strip..... I take care of my car and don't thrash it. Ask Yfin what he thinks he has seen the car.

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Just another dyno queen hey spend all this money on a setup to make the car faster and not use it :confused:
Regards Dyno Dave

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Originally Posted by EuroAccord13

I don't doubt the power your car already possesses, but it'll be nice to see it in terms of performance and not just on paper... I mean.. The number of hours the car has been on the dyno easily pushes the car much further than say running the car 3 times on the strip... So what is a few runs on the strip?:cool:

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:thumbsup: Couldn't agree more

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Originally Posted by DynoDave

Just another dyno queen hey spend all this money on a setup to make the car faster and not use it :confused:
Regards Dyno Dave

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maybe he appreciates the extra responsiveness in every day driving?

different strokes for different folks

It'd be nice to see a timeslip to match up with the impressive dyno results...
Otherwise I think alot of the gloss of the dyno figures gets worn away.

i cant wait untill this comes out im pumped

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Originally Posted by ginganggooly

It'd be nice to see a timeslip to match up with the impressive dyno results...
Otherwise I think alot of the gloss of the dyno figures gets worn away.

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don't get me wrong I'd like to see what it can do as well - i just don't think anyone should be pressured into, or put down for not wanting to take it to the strip. It's peekay's car afterall.

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Originally Posted by Chris_F

don't get me wrong I'd like to see what it can do as well - i just don't think anyone should be pressured into, or put down for not wanting to take it to the strip. It's peekay's car afterall.

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Thanks mate thats right. Besides why should I go to a strip just for others sake if they want how fast it goes if they want it they can pay for it cause I ain't out of my pocket I know what the car can do even as it stands now... I have never put a car on a strip not even my Sportivo Corolla with the $12500 dollars worth of mods that I spent on it.

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Originally Posted by DynoDave

Just another dyno queen hey spend all this money on a setup to make the car faster and not use it :confused:
Regards Dyno Dave

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I prefer the driveabiliity not being a dyno queen it is a project car for the fun of it I don't need to do 160 kmh just to find out how quick it is or isn't so thanks for the comment mate really appretiate it. What money I have spent and why is my business and no one elses. Do I tell you how to spend your hard earned cash?????

Besides with all this so call dyno queening who will benefit from all my hard earned spending on a dyno.... You who ever buys the stuff...
So I don't think you have the right to knock me. The car is not complete I don't have all the stuff on my car even if I wanted to go to a track ...which I have no intention of doing. I have better things at the moment to do with my money... Like a new garage, rendering my house, buying a new tv, fixing my windows on my house, buying a motor bike, restumping some of my house....... so track work maybe in 3 years time when I have the spare cash..

Hmm.ah ..ok

Can we get back on topic about actual release info on Hondata or whateva its called these days?

Ive decided to keep my 05 euro and get a new 07 CRV lux as a runabout so bring on the mods im up for it. Asuming of course that its not vapourware......

Why do you need the CRV? The Euro is already a runabout. It's not like its a track car.... Unless you need the space or you plan to drive up the stairs or something.

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Originally Posted by Peekay34

Besides with all this so call dyno queening who will benefit from all my hard earned spending on a dyno.... You who ever buys the stuff...

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And we all know how valuable dyno figures are.
:zip:

is it going to be release end of this month now?

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Originally Posted by BusterSonic12

is it going to be release end of this month now?

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Apparently.

No no, February 2008

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Originally Posted by Pumped

No no, February 2008

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2008??????:confused:
until the new Euro come out?
LOL

:p jks

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Originally Posted by aaronng

Why do you need the CRV? The Euro is already a runabout. It's not like its a track car.... Unless you need the space or you plan to drive up the stairs or something.

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Yer u got a 5 month old baby and the wife likes the extra space. The new crv does handle very nicely but its underpowered. So i get the best of both worlds, a euro to Mod and a decent family/lux car for trips.

Cant wait for the hondata, hope its soon.

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Originally Posted by ginganggooly

And we all know how valuable dyno figures are.
:zip:

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Mate without dyno's what would you be doing to get relevant figures... racing up and down the streets of lehkemba I supose????? with some one chasing it with an analyser????? hmmm now I would like to see that

dynos are great for tuning a/f mixtures and thats about it.
i have seen cars make 500hp on a dyno and people think shit that must be quick but if it makes 500hp at 6000 rpm its not very usefull.
dyno figures dont mean a thing in my eyes cos they dont always mean quick times.

So what is the expected Strip Times with the Stage 3 and Stage 4 set up?

Although Peekay isn't interested and it is his rights albeit strange considering the car's all powered up, I'm thinking a lot of customers will want to see some real figures.

I need to be able to overtake some MPS and GTIs. :angel:

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Originally Posted by Peekay34

Mate without dyno's what would you be doing to get relevant figures... racing up and down the streets of lehkemba I supose????? with some one chasing it with an analyser????? hmmm now I would like to see that

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Thats a pretty harsh and inappropriate generalisation mate. Might be best to keep that to another thread and keep this on topic eh?

Ok...

I apologise as I feel I was the one responsible to get the OT going... Let's stop here and just wait for the formal release...

As for what Peekay wants to do with his car, it's his choice, if he wants to keep the car away from the track, it's his choice so let's end it here....

I apologise as well. But I am quite sick of people hammering me because of the choices I make with my car.

It is a passion to make my car the best I can... just cause I don't race the thing is my choice ....maybe one day. But I just don't have the spare cash at the moment besides I don't have the full kit on my car yet.

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Originally Posted by albii

dynos are great for tuning a/f mixtures and thats about it.
i have seen cars make 500hp on a dyno and people think shit that must be quick but if it makes 500hp at 6000 rpm its not very usefull.
dyno figures dont mean a thing in my eyes cos they dont always mean quick times.

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That is so well put,I'm all in for racing dyno's and then talking up how fast there car SHOULD BE at the track.
Regards Dyno Dave

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Originally Posted by Peekay34

Mate without dyno's what would you be doing to get relevant figures... racing up and down the streets of lehkemba I supose????? with some one chasing it with an analyser????? hmmm now I would like to see that

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I'd be doing what I've done in the past - Taking it to the strip.
Those figures are much more relevent than any dyno figures.

It's amazing that someone who has spent hours upon hours, whoring their car up on a dyno, refuses to give the car a few passes down the strip on the basis of not wanting to "thrash" their car... Mate, just wrap it up in cotton wool and leave it in the garage.

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Originally Posted by ginganggooly

I'd be doing what I've done in the past - Taking it to the strip.
Those figures are much more relevent than any dyno figures.

It's amazing that someone who has spent hours upon hours, whoring their car up on a dyno, refuses to give the car a few passes down the strip on the basis of not wanting to "thrash" their car... Mate, just wrap it up in cotton wool and leave it in the garage.

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Peekay has given up his car as a test mule in the Hondata development process for a long time. He has been without his car in some cases for many weeks if not months at a time. We will all benefit from the sacrifices he has made and I don't see any utility in pressuring him to do something he has already said he is not going to do. His explanation for being involved in the process is more than reasonable. He is looking for improved driveability - not some stupid piece of paper that says what the car can do over 400 metres.

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Originally Posted by yfin

Peekay has given up his car as a test mule in the Hondata development process for a long time. He has been without his car in some cases for many weeks if not months at a time. We will all benefit from the sacrifices he has made and I don't see any utility in pressuring him to do something he has already said he is not going to do. His explanation for being involved in the process is more than reasonable. He is looking for improved driveability - not some stupid piece of paper that says what the car can do over 400 metres.

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Ahyes, instead we have a stupid piece of paper that says with these mods you make this much power. Good on you.

Time slips are stupid pieces of paper now are they?
Here I was thinking this forum was for enthusiasts. Silly me.

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Originally Posted by ginganggooly

Ahyes, instead we have a stupid piece of paper that says with these mods you make this much power. Good on you.

Time slips are stupid pieces of paper now are they?
Here I was thinking this forum was for enthusiasts. Silly me.

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You can be a car enthustiast without giving a hoot about 1/4 mile times or dyno graphs. I, for one, prefer to focus on how balanced a car is and how it handles rather than 1/4 mile or dyno graphs. Any idiot can put their foot down and drive a car in a straight line.

The dyno readings Peekay has are from the development process. He has not gone into the process chasing a number on the dyno. And yes, they are both just stupid pieces of paper as they don't tell you with any certainty how the car drives in the real world.

Disagree with you Yfin, the quarter mile slip is a much better yardstick for power, and the drag strip is the real world is it not?

What you will find that many of the others are already finding out or have found out is that many of these powerful dyno'ed cars cant get anything like a good time on the quarter mile, and it shows that most often is the case, that they really dont have the power they claim.

And no, not just any idiot can put their foot down and drive fast, there is skill in drag racing as there is in circuit racing.

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Originally Posted by pornstar

Disagree with you Yfin, the quarter mile slip is a much better yardstick for power, and the drag strip is the real world is it not?

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Yeah for sure, 1/4 is better than a dyno chart. But I don't see the 1/4 as meaning much in the real world because of the speeds involved (well over 100kph). And yes you are right there is a skill to drag racing.

But some people seem to be blinded by 1/4 mile times. That is all they want to know. Why don't people prefer to look at 0-100, 0-60 and overtaking times. More useful to me.

1/4 mile = a number of variables involved (driver & conditions)

I think I'd have more to gain with my car down the quarter by handing it to an experienced driver.

dyno = a number of variables (calibration & conditions)

The real value is in tuning the car, power at the wheels is good for a rough idea but is hard to compare across dynos as most know.

I'd also be interested in 0-100km/h figures but, even more so, in gear rolling acceleration tests... say 20-100km/g and 80-120km/h tested back to back with a standard euro on the same day. No real thrashing of the car would be required and you could gauge an improvement more easily by eliminating a lot of variables.