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Cheers Ads,
Yeah, I was kicking myself that there was no cam pulleys to adjust, I wanted to play around a little. With ignition timing, I found that was the case, it made a little more power before it dropped off with less timing! It didn't like much timing in the low map area either, needs to breathe more!
wasnt there one same build that hit 145kw ?
also what about the projected 1/4 mile time be for it, its dc2 integra type-R box
145 was on another dyno, different bottom end, 3" catback, different intake, later model type r cams and who knows what other variables.
The only other RSmachine bottom end that pushes big power is dave's one he built for BYP
what was urs b20 build? or u talking about ur b16a? :S .. what do u mean by 50% throttle? so u werent pushing peddle down to the floor when u dynoed it ?Quote:
Originally Posted by delsol9000rpms
lol havent you heard of sarcasm. your too gullable.
lol i didnt know u were talking shit, so used to seeing in these forums
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSi_PSi
yeah...unfortunately sarcasm CANNOT be properly taken on the internet. Sometimes people are serious sometimes they are not.
Ways to tell if some one is being sarcastic tho....are if they post in italics.
for example
Hondas , are the fastest cars in the world ;)
But they are ben your eg was quick
I love how on topic this thread is ATM
IMO I think people are getting a little hung up over dyno figures
True, but it's a shame it's the only thing that we can really "compare" :(.
1/4 times is another problem in itself, oh well. Make do with what we have available to us!
Guys I am looking to build a B20 Shortblock and 'slap' my itr head on it.
Is there an advantage in re-using my ITR Crank vs B20 Crank?
Does anyone know of any 'fresh' built short blocks?
What is the highest recommended compression to run for street / race engine? (i.e. Running 98 Octane at minimum) - 12.5:1??
Sorry I've got a LOT of reading to do... lol (Cause these questions have been asked a hundred times, and answered differently too!)
no, sell teh B18CR short block to pay for the B20...
it will cost you around 5000 for a built (forged) bottom-end...
plus 89mm crank is better than the 87.2mm crank for power...
toda has a built b20b bottom which might interest you
Our B20 combo's are:
1972cc B20B Short engine
$4350 outright
Basic high comp B20B prepared for Vtec conversion
Incl High compression 11.8:1 C/R cast pistons, ARP rod bolts, ARP head studs.
ACL bearings, full engine gasket kit
New rings, bearings, gaskets, water pump timing belt etc
GE Vtec conversion kit, B-series sump baffle
All you need is your Vtec PR3 or P72 head
is this considered an average price? sounds quite good considering all parts/labour and warranty from TODA.
its a good price coming from toda, obv theres some that can do the same for cheaper but you dont know their workmanship :)
how much kw can the stock crank handle?
More than you will ever make naturally aspirated
Yeah im talking with Adrian ... So many different directions..
lol -- anyone want a B18CR engine un-opened? What do they go for? 205 compression approx across all four cylinders.
Spreadsheet is looking a little crazy with all the different cost scenarios argh...
Adrian --- Thanks for your time again, always plenty of time to discuss with your customers!
Great site on how to build a B20 -- With actual example measurements for machining etc and detailed instruction ...... Hmmm ...
http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/
Yeh Larry does a good detailed build report, there is a few more out there on honda-tech, I take some of their advice with a grain of salt though... gotta remember the politics behind it all, it's very annoying.
ivé had a b20vtec for 3 years now built from the bottom up. you name it, type-r crank and low friction journal berring's , 84.5mm forged 13 comp pistons with 3 leaf head gasket to drop the comp to 12.5, forged rod's, block guard+welded in and the block planed and the cylinder's honed out, p72 vtec head, stage 3 + buddyclub cam's, skunk2 intake manifold, buddyclub 4-2-1 header, high flow cat with 2.5 straight through piping, toda racing fly wheel, exedy sports tuff clutch, type-r gearbox 4.7 final drive, koni adjustable shock's with lowered king spring's, blox 68mm throttle body, buddy club double coil valve spring's with titanium retainer's, jdm p30 ecu with apexi vafc2 and 240cc injectors. and this is my daily to and from work ,shop's, road trip's and home. iv'e had no problem's with this set up. it was buit @ good performance centre yennora by charlie and his crew. so why doe's everybody hate on the frankenstien?
You spent all that money, and tuned on a VAFC2?
What sort of power you getting from that combo - Imagine the header is restrictive? I've heard restrictive header can induce detonation in high output B20's?
Stock ports on the head?
I'm about to buy an Endyn head thats been prepared -- 1mm oversized intake valves, extensive porting and welding etc .. Hoping to use it as my 'power-getter' :)
Thanks for the info -- Also wondering why you went with 13:1 comp pistons only to reduce comp by using thick head gasket.. ? Were there clearance issues?
using a b18cr crank will result in a 1.9 litre. 87mm crank vs 89mm b20/gsi crank
Techincally closer to 2L than 1.9L lol !! :PQuote:
Originally Posted by yaz_gsi_my_titz
1956cc ..
I get 1932cc...
84.5?? Hmmm
irrellevant, using a 89mm will give you more capacity
<= blindQuote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
So? Itr stroke will rev better and the difference in cc is **** all .. Better r/s ratio, fully counterweighted, and the small difference in cc can be made up with a small increase in bore ie 85 mm ... In fact, without going to 92mm crank with tall deck, this is supposedly the best base for reliable performance.... Just more $$ than 89mm crankQuote:
Originally Posted by GSi_PSi
lol how much is an 89mm crank...Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
i got an itr crank rod and pistons for 200 wnd hand and in good nick
and doesnt look like they will ever see my b16b
if you want a reliable long lasting b20 i suggest you use the standard crankshaft 89mm which is already balanced from factory and dont mess with the already thin sleeves.
Using a ITR crank will decrease capacity and torque. the B20/gsi 89mm crank is free with a b20 engine lol. otherwise it wont be more than 50 bucks
Yep cheap enough -- but they don't come in a 84mm+ bore do they.. I mean, you have to spend time and or money installing it into the block.. More $$ than simply changing rod bolts for a budget build. Likely need to get an align hone to make sure mains are correct and measure for bearings / journal clearance.. more $$ ...
Thats what i'm getting at. 89mm is used primarily because its the easiest - the B20B comes with the crank already in it.
Race application most people use either 87.2mm crank or 92mm crank in the states ... 95mm crank is mainly used only for drag races it seems due to increased bearing and side loading.
Even some of the reputable engine builders on this forum have recommended itr crank for high performance application and that the difference in actual output is minimal.
edit -- when i say race application, i mean the big budget guys.
GsiPsi i am looking to go sleeved block mate. And there are harmonics issues with the b20 crank at high rpm. I'm talking endurance motor capability.
I'm just thinking fo the rod/stroke ratio and longevity of engine... The B20 Crank is lighter than the ITR crank though ....
Ummm yes they do come with 84mm b20 blocks???? no you dont have to spend money or time installing installing it..????
the reason why the itr crank shouldnt be implemented is because its not designed for the b20 bottom end, stuffing up the harmonics of the engine completly.
plus your losing capacity and torque which is needed, the 89mm crank will give you better torque lower in the rev range, without wearing out the sleeves higher in the rev range. Netherlesss its more a fck around installing the itr crank than leaving the stock crank which will give you a better output
Ok so maybe someone like Adrian or Chris or someone else with extensive knowledge can step in here but my belief was:
Harmonics come from the crank, not the block.
Yes the B20 block comes with 84mm but it doesn't come with the 87.2mm crank does it!
Yes, if you want to do it properly, you should get the main's align honed ?? (is that the term?) where they ensure the journals are true and straight. Then new bearings.. ADDED COST / EFFORT
The difference in capacity is a huge 40cc ...
I don't drive my engine on the track at lower rpm where the said 89mm develops more torque, and even on the street if i want the power i change down a gear. Why? To take advantage of a freely spinning engine.. In fact, the rod/stroke ratio and rod/bore ration is inclined to producing peak torque higher in the range meaning (again because HP is a product of torque & RPM) the range i use the motor in, it actually develops power higher where I am using it rather than tapering off..
ITR (again) is fully counterbalanced ... It can be lightened (some say around a kg max) without affecting high rpm harmonics / vibrations. Remember heavier = better vibration damping to some extent however at cost of engine response. Thus my question about weight of 89mm vs 87.2mm..
Look, if I could get a tall deck block, I'd just get a 92mm crank and call it a day with 84mm bore but thats when costs start to ramp up...
I'm not trying to start an argument but it just seems in race motors that the 87.2mm crank has yielded more reliable high rpm performance and with similar power levels (area under the graph, total accelerative effort)
(ps im not trying to disrespect anyone here -- I have not built one, just trying to learn as well)
The thread has turned into something for once :).
Harmonics can come from anywhere, it mainly gets distributed and amplified in the crank though. This is not apparently in only B20's, it's a phenomena in alot of engines, the F1 engineers spend hours on R&D to minimise/eliminate this in their motors, if anyone can get their hands on a spectograph from the engine recording of an F1 engine you will notice red areas in the lower RPM range, this is the harmonic they avoid, since the engine is barely at that RPM, it's not a worry, but i'm just trying to prove a point, every motor has a strong harmonic, my old nissan KA24 would harmonic so bad at around 7500 with the standard components its known that blocks have split, and we're talking cast iron blocks...
My only advice to eliminate this crap, balance everything in the engine, rods, pistons, pins, etc etc all the same weight, run a good harmonic balancer, ensure you have an oil cooler of some sort (99% of b20's out there don't have one), don't run aggressive cams for no reason and do the checks to ensure everything is ok - crank is true, etc. Align honing of the bores is something that should be done regardless. I don't know how many machine shops go through this process to check but to be honest, Honda blocks are pretty damn good from factory. I've had one block that had a stupidly tight 5th main on it though...don't know what happened there!
Crank weight - lighter is not always better, think of induced wobble. By using the ITR crank over the B20 crank, I daresay the engine response won't change much especially once the motor gets breathing.
This leads me to b20 crank vs itr crank, I don't see the big fuss, it's probably a good idea for the street and to keep the compression manageable, the rod ratio goes from 1.54 to 1.57, which is nothing dramatic. Sidewall/bearing loading is fine with that rod ratio regardless, you probably will find longer life from the later, but this has not been a problem on any street b20 so far.
The problem with making power isn't so much from the bottom end, too many people spend time on the bottom end and forget that power comes from the head. Yes the geometry of the bottom matters and choosing the right components bla bla matters, but who here goes to the effort of finding out what works best, what lasts the longest, what will make better torque and maintain life, at the end of the day, what I just mentioned in pursuit is left to engines with iron sleeves. I can't see standard sleeved b20 motors lasting with a fair big of power going through them for long, even if some do, I still think it's a matter of luck with regards to how long the sleeves will hold together, there is too many variables in the block production process and for material to cool in x amount of time will result in some sort of imperfection and result with a crack size different to the block made a moment ago. If someone thinks i'm talking out of my arse I can show you a simple mathematical model of how internal crack size changes the fracture toughness of a material.
If I was to do a sleeved b20 build, i'd do a tall teck with an 85mm bore and a 98mm stroke. Custom pistons with the pin raised as far as possible and running a rod as long as possible. I put together something that I calculated one night from curiosity, it's doable but the pistons will need a fair bit of insight to design, everything else is pretty much available easily.
This is comparing a typical ~135kw b20vtec build to what my program spat out for the figures of my combo; (assuming a 300cfm flowing head)
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/3...b20race.th.jpg
For those who can't read the graph, the bottom lines is the torque and HP output of the ~130kw b20v. (red and light blue is the big b20, light green and dark blue is the ~130kw b)
edit: Yes, restrictive exhausts lead to detonation on any engine, not just b20's, the increase in backpressure means that some exahaust gas may find it's way back into the chamber again and the rest is downhill..
for added peace of mind if youre so worried about harmonics? ati fluid dampersQuote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
http://www.atiracing.com/products/da...s/damhonda.htm
Will get one anyway .. All insurance and tlc hah.
Thanks for the detailed reply chris
An ITR crank pulley is more than sufficient to rev to 9200rpm. Just make sure you balance the bottom end properly
Benson, you mean using an itr crank and pulley is good to 9200rpm no need for damper? Or using itr pulley on b20 crank??
i went the thicker gasket so i could use 98 octane without detonation, other wise i'd have to use aviation fuel, and that shit's expensive!
wasn't all that expensive. just gotta know the right people?. the header isn't restrictive, you should check out the buddyclub site for info on these pipe's. the ports are factory size's. don't know the out put yet, i don't think it's worth knowing till i get my hand's on a S200 for a proper tune. but with the vafc2 i find i get a smother vtec switch point @ 5900, rather then the factory 4900 point, i also adjust the fuel map between these point's up 20%, think about it max rev's 8200 so the gap between these points is 20% of the rev range. i not claiming it's 100% accurate but by feel and checking my spark plug's it's not running lean or rich.
Ahh I see the logic in that (i.e. easier to build high cp short block and lower compression with head gasket and still have high cp capability for track in future etc .. ) Only concern is I heard thicker head gasket can fail easier??? (Confirm or deny anyone?) ..
I got to thinking about it all last night a bit more in depth regarding 87.2mm vs 89mm for my and most applications.. I'm not planning an 11,000rpm build so using the 87.2mm crank is probably unnecessary as Gsi-Psi pointed out in another thread.. I also figure that I can get a forged bottom end sleeved b20 (or b18 bored) to rev happily to 9500rpm when needed..
I think I've secured a head :) :eek:
Chris -- the 98mm stroke would have massive load on bearings wouldn't it? I.e. that would be great for a single race but no more without a tear down and inspect? Seems even with the 95mm stroke the increased load on bearings is an issue.. Thus the 92mm application for a daily duties high peformance motor... Would love to see that build though!
Has anyone had their block sleeved in Australia or should I get a block from the US? Shipping will be $$ compared to block price itself.
you have balls running that car on only a shitty vtec air flow controller
no problem's since it was built. no ping'n or detonation, has always run fine.
Well i guess if your not driving it hard then why not LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by GSi_PSi
If he takes the set-up to the track, it will need a tow back home
i sense there is some trash talk'n, tuner try-hards. amongst the thread here?
lol did someone just call benson a tuner try hard? :O
No try hards. Just an owner that is backing a supernfaggotafc. Get a real ecu, what's the point of making fuel only adjustment...vtec crossover at 5900 on a b20v? What cams are you running? They must be big.
Ewen, the 98mm stroke build in the previous page had a long rod that made the rod ratio something like 1.52 which will show acceptable wear. I would go 84x95mm tall deck. 92mm will buzz harder but we all know rpm is teh devil.
why must someone build a motor to someone else's expectation's? chill out man? to each their i say! any way not all of us are certified mech's. and can only do with what we have and know at the time. i didn't intend to insult. i just don't get how we assume that my build would fail and have to be tow'd home due to a VAFC2. i have no track exp but i do push it hard up and down the old pacific highway, every second week end or so. not only i adjust the fuel @ the cross over, but throughout the entire rev range, i start by increasing the fuel @1000rpm by 4% and increase it again by 1% every 500rpm so when you get to 8200rpm it's now +20% @ top end. cam's i'm running are, intake 296 duration @ 1mm open and 11.5 lift. the exhaust 290 duration @1mm open and 11.3 lift.
your going to spend all that money building up your b20 only to cheap out on a tuneable ecu which highly puts your motor at risk then call us tuner try hards for giving you advice
you guys are taking this all to seriously. i explained that earlier that i have this shitty controller and no dyno output figure's co's i haven't come across an S200 yet?
i wouldnt be pushing it hard on any highways just yet then, better safe then sorry, and charlie doesnt do no warranty as far as im concerned
been pushing it hard for 3 year's now. like i said no prob's, and don't need warranty when it's built right.
lol, sami, go take it for a spin and show the block what it can do :P hahah
Nothing against you as in bagging you out, but we just disagree how you are willing to risk so much money for nothing, if you say your waiting for a n s200, it's taking you 3 years? Anyway! Adding fuel like that doesn't mean your doing anything right. I think you should get an ecu for that thing asap and see what the fuel ratios are, if your more than happy with the setup at the moment, then so be it
bdw, you don't need to be a certified mechanic to know a little about this, sami for example has come from nothing and knows alot now, maybe not ecu tuning events but thats because he hasnt looked into that yet..im pretty sure, ABC taxi repairs wont know jack shit about a b20vtec anyway lol
Hey guys keep it tame each to their own.. Toguetom if it makes it easier I found my chipped s300 in the states for quite cheap compared to here, and I think you can find a good deal on Honda-tech .. I just don't understand (again) why local hondata dot price competitively to stop people shopping overseas..
I've been recommended set of s2p1 cams so will see if I can find a set, apparenty less aggressive wear on rockers compared with some of the others .. Has anyone experienced this wear?
Are there any sleeving specialists in aust that u builders would trust ?
okie dokie?
Togue Tom .. How many kms u got on that setup? Longest I've seen so far is 25000miles so about 40000kms on a b20 stock sleeve before dramas... I guess they haven't been around that long to get an idea of longevity..
VAFC works fine for a B20VTEC... it all comes down to the tuner i guess?Quote:
Originally Posted by Touge Tom
mine did over 40'000km and is still going...Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
my other one is also still around, from 2002 - no idea how many km on that one!
Do you give it a hard time reguarly or do you putt around town and only give it on the track???
man if ur worried about the motor dying then don't build one
Hardly a logical path.. I am mitigating weak points or concerns so I need to know those problems first. To say that is a little ridiculous. Everyone that builds an engine tries to avoid failure!
If you're saying don't build it unless you can afford it to fail then sure, but that's why I'm not going too hardcore with cams / rev requirement. Just making it as reliable as possible given others experiences!
about 65,000klm. serviced every 5,000klm by myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
thank's for the support man!Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
Stay away from oversized valves they will not deliver unless your combination is perfect.Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
Is the extra 40cc more capacity is worth the inferior bearings & inferior rod ratio.Quote:
Originally Posted by GSi_PSi
Not to mention the better crank that doesn’t seem to have the same harmonic issues.
The longer the stroke, the greater the problem with harmonicsQuote:
Originally Posted by Chr1s
The higher the power output, the greater the problem with harmonics
The higher the rpm the greater the problem with harmonics
Balancing helps… & lightweight parts can help in an effort to push the resonant frequency beyond the rev range.
So for high output B-series applications, reducing one pasts propensity to exasperating the harmonic problem of the engine seems obvious, particularly with the change is a positive on three fronts & a negative on only 1.
Better bearings, rod ratio, harmonics V 40cc
Increasing the stroke on a high rpm engine is a less than considered approach.
Re exhaust flow…
Actually a more efficient exhaust means you need less total advance to produce best power. The reverse is true when an exhaust system is restrictive. The same is true of the intake.
Volumetric efficiency is reduced by a drop in efficiency & because of this less charge enters the cylinder.
If compression remains the same, more total advance is required because the dynamic compression is reduced.
The exhaust leaves of it’s own accord & some may be left behind.
But it never left & then came back. LOL
Anyway…
Fluidampr is another excellent brandQuote:
Originally Posted by mocchi
With a 98mm stroke the pistons are still going to flog out because it’s got a 98mm stroke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chr1s
Rod ratio is irrelevant, this just tells you where the power is going to arrive best & how you aught to tune the thing.
& even with 95mm stoke in a dart tall deck, you still have to graunch big cut-out into the bottom of the bore to clear the rods & say goodbye to the piston under crown cooling jets.
We have a number of engines out there that are sleeved locally with no reliability issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
Nice input Adrian, it's nice to see someone not agreeing all the time, it's the beauty of human life is it not? different views and all.
The 340hp calculated engine I did has nothing to compare with 40cc, let alone it's not even a 2.0L anymore, it's a 2300cc combination. The harmonics caused I beleive are negligable and that motor combination is very doable, if your logic sticks to plan, the mighty K series will turn its arse to bits if spun hard with their 99mm stroke or whatever it is, my donk I learnt on had a stroke in the 1000s and people spin them to 9500rpm while putting down 350hp at the tyre happily in new zealand sprint cars, but lets keep this b series related, i'm just putting it out there. The harmonic at the end of the day, is unavoidable, but can be minimised.
If you want to take the route of running less stroke and doing the rest to reduce the negative effect of the harmonic, well I don't see high output being possible with a reducing displacement.
Exhaust gas never coming back in the chamber? Umm, overlap? I think we're talking about different things and yes I agree with you 100% about the efficiency effects and pretty much in a nutshell, greater backpressure = harder for exhaust gas to evacuate.
The 98mm stroke build is possible, I wouldn't bother running oil squirters anyway, the pistons can handle the heat just fine, i'd rather maintain my oil stability and reduce slight pumping losses. Rod ratio will tell you where power is? So what if I had an engine with a rod ratio of 1.9 and a restrictive camshaft? When I see higher rod ratio numbers, I associate it with a motor than can carry the torque as the RPMs increase as there is less sidewall loading as a result the vector loading on the bearings is minimised, what do you think of when looking at a rod ratio number? (in detail please!)
Block notching, I don't mind this, there is actually less friction at that point but obviously more loading since the surface area is minimised. It's all one big tradeoff as you said earlier, minimise one thing, increase the other.
Keep this going, it's good :)
Now we're talking! Thanks Adrian..
Hmm .. I'll consider the itr crank again now...
Adrian - also been advised to sleeve a b18c so I can retain the stock girdle and have a vtec block without risk of leaks... Apparently there are also dramas associated with sleeving a b20 due to different construction and wall thickness.. I like the Dan benson approach of removing the top half of the cylinders then installl a stepped sleeve which locates itself onto the original bored out cylinder half way down... Proper heat based install too rather than pressed.. Avoids issue of dropping sleeves. Only otherway is to slightly taper the bore?
With regards to exhaust since we want to maintain high velocity to create torque, I'd imagine the restriction in my 4:1 header bs big tube would promote mid range torque with limit on top end power ... Ie reach maximum velocity at a lower rpm due to increased displacement and aggressive head pattern?
Reason I wasn't concerned about oversized intake valve was that the examples I've seen show the engine needs about 80% exhaust flow compared with intake (due to atmospheric pressure dragging intake charge In compared with force acted upon exhaust gas exiting and heat of charge.. It seemed some of the heads responded well to the additional intake flow capability while maintaining exhaust around the same to increase effectiveness of the cycle? This is a ported head and alaniz was going to supply .5mm oversize on his intake valves too???
Damn you guys are getting way tooo technical. Just keep the build simple and learn of other ppl in the states or locally that has done it. There is no need to be creative when it comes to an engine build, unless you want to throw thousands of dollars out the window and look forward to dissapointment.
As for headers, 4-2-1 or 4-1 same deal. If the headers isnt designed well, then both will make poor power. Check out those cheap Tri-Y's. They are the best bang for buck headers out there. Works very well on most b20vtec
I won the 2007 NSW Supersprint Championship in Class 3B with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
just build a B18CR engine...Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
you will need a custom header designed for your combination to produce the best results.Quote:
With regards to exhaust since we want to maintain high velocity to create torque, I'd imagine the restriction in my 4:1 header bs big tube would promote mid range torque with limit on top end power ... Ie reach maximum velocity at a lower rpm due to increased displacement and aggressive head pattern?
oversized valves reduce your camshaft options, is that really worth it?Quote:
Reason I wasn't concerned about oversized intake valve was
I had a look at the head his looking at, it's certainly a hardcore head, i'd stick to standard valves, 0.5mm+ at most so I can retain the adjustability and cam choice, but whats done is done.
I agree, if your really paranoid, rebuild your B18CR as I did mention :p
Apparently guy who was using it had no clearance issues up to skunk2pro1 so that's likely what I'll use to be on safe side.. Still plenty aggressive. Only intake valve is oversize, I hear main issues come from both valves being oversizsed.. Not saying it isn't close though.
There's a fair few people who get custom ground intake cam to accomodate more clearance for cam gear tuning later on, but you'll be fine..
There's a stroker motor running the same spec head with pro3's putting down like 300whp.
man people get way to technical , just build your engine dont look to great into this ratio and this ratio, its not a racecar which will see 10,000rpm constantly, build your motor, tune it properly and call it a day.
It's ok to want to understand things ... I was advised to research, now I'm researching too much?