About to start my first turbo build... b16a

Ok i can see that allot of people have been posting topics asking about b16a turbo setups and the last thing i wanna do is add to the ever increasing mass of these usless topics.

I just want some input on who i can talk to in the brisbane area (like a mechanic/tuning place) to help me with the build e.g sourceing parts and actually knows what they are talking about (experience with hondas)...

ive just been made redundent from work so they gave me 6k... im going to use this money as i assume i can get a pretty good setup with that. i have never really ever worked on a turbo car but have been doing some research to gather info on what i need. i am just looking for a mild setup on stock interals to use for good old QR sprints.

ok so far i have the following:
stock JDM b16a series 2 with a full stainless 2.25 exhaust and hiflo cat, Surge tank with walbro fuel pump, sump has been modified with two 1/4" Fittings...

by my understanding i will need the following:
Turbo - decided on GT2860RS (.86) or GT2871R (.63)
Oil and water lines - Braided Lines
Manifold -
Intercooler -
BOV -
Injectors - Denso 550cc
Engine managment - Hondata S300

Anything i have forgotten??

wondering if it would be better to get a whole kit or just source the parts individually...

Reading through B16 aka Matt's thread has helped heaps but i feel like i need to talkto someone about allot of little things to do with turbo setups that i just dont understand/know about.

please dont post unless you know what you are talking about. i need people with real world experience. but any info is great.

thanks guys!

Ok you probably wont get better help that talking to people on here about building a custom kit. So just ask questions and people can help.... Make a list and get people to help you with it and just tick off what you need and where to get it done. Or do it yourself

Its good you got the fuel pump etc cos that would be required in the upgrade to turbo.

I've had gt28rs and its great spool. Very quick but it falls out on the top end but it still good for the power your running.

your 2.25 inch exhaust should be fine for a gt28rs running 6-10psi max but anything more you would need to upgrade

Oil and water fittings can be done custom by going to hose fitting joints. In perth we have enzed and Hosemart. Can either do Braided or High temp sard silicone. Difference in price is $80 for good silicone high temp or $250 for good braided...I did braided but silicone just as good. Dont go cheap on the silicone hosing if you go that way because it will melt.

Buy an intercooler seperate and mount it yourself then get an exhaust shop to custom up a piping setup for your car. To be honest i think thats the best way and it will only cost 200-400. Intercooler size is just depending on how much psi you want...optimum officiancy rating on the gt28rs is like 10.4psi or something. Anything over that will start to create more Heat which will need a bigger intercooler to cool that. But if your not going past 10psi then a smaller one will do fine.

Engine management i went with a power FC but alot of guys on here go hondata so they should be the GO!...dont know much about them so you would have to ask someone else on the model you would need for your setup.

Injectors you will need something around 550cc's RC's seam to be the way to go with honda's

BOV is personal preference...Just sound really. With the amount of PSI your running you might not even need a bov. I've got the HKS SSQ but ive blocked it atm cos i perfer to run it without. But anything above 7psi you will start to do ongoing damage to the turbo which will just wear its life out quicker.

Exhaust manifold is the biggest decision of all. Dont get your mate to tig/mig or anything weld it. Trust me ive gone down that path and it doesnt end up well. Ive been through 4 different exhaust manifolds and you get what you pay for. Make sure you pay attention to exhaust manifolds and what your buying...i suggest search up on here about that and look for Steam pipe builds. Theres also the difference between Long ram and Short Ram

Me Lukenzen and Limbo all have b16a2's with gt28XX's with similar setup to what you want...theres heeps of others with the same...just get your info off here.

Edit your post and start to make a list...E.g

Turbo - Gt28rs
Intercooler - China Ebay 700x300x400
injectors - RC 660cc

and so on

EDIT:


My ECU is stock, except that the EPROM chip has been de-soldered and replaced with a DIP socket, this can then take a ZIP socket and the ZIP socket takes the ribbon cable for the Emulator. All that crap is just the interface connections for the Emulator.

The EPROM chip that was removed just contains the fuel and ignition timing maps, and a few other things and all the emulator does is store and show the ecu these maps, but they are now completely editable.

Some consider it ‘piggyback’ but it’s not. Piggyback systems intercept the signals coming into the ecu and change or block them. The system I run allows full standard operation of the stock ecu.

I run a program called BRE on my laptop, which connects to the emulator and gives me the fuel and ignition maps to play with. It’s freeware and doesn’t cost a penny. It’s a US based program and is found on www.pgmfi.org.

The LC-1 is a wideband sensor and controller, most commonly used in Honda’s and other makes as well. It is a well established bench mark for Wideband 02 sensors.
How does it work. A narrowband sensor has a limited voltage between 0-1v and is limited to seeing an AFR (air fuel ratio) of something like 11-17 AFR, a wideband sensor has a voltage range of 1-5v and can see anything from 7-21 AFR. They have a much more accurate reading of afr’s and as they can see a greater range are what we use for tuning. The LC-1 has two analogue outputs, I run one into my stoc ecu and this is fed into my tuning program (BRE) and the other output goes to a visual display called the DB Gauge, this shows me in cabin AFR’s.

So by seeing the AFR’s in the BRE program, I am able to adjust the fuel maps with the help of the Emulator to affect the output.

Yes, the tuners I have used tune through the emulator as that is how I have set it up. They also tune with their own 5 wire wideband at the tale pipe that runs into their dyno software (this is used as a double check).

Hondata is basically the same as what I have, a chipped & socketed stock ecu, your paying for the additional features and the tunability of it, I say tunability of it as there are tuners that specialise in tuning this ecu. No one’s heard of BRE, although I have been fine with using it as I sit there with the tuner on the dyno and work the program.

It’s a bit tricky to explain and I rushed that a bit, happy to go over it in person, and it’ll make more sense to you as well 

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacDiZZle

Hi Matt! :wave:

first i just want to say wow! i love this thread! this is just what i needed... Im about to start my first ever turbo build too and yours is an inspiration.

i have never worked on or even driven a turbo car so i have a bit to learn in terms of boosting stuff.

basically i want what you have hey lol. 8-10psi, stock internals just a nice reliable setup to improve my times at qr... i like the gt28rs... it looks like it will suit my purpose well (being a circuit car) when tuned properly based on your dyno sheets.

my question has to do with your ecu setup... is it a piggyback system? what is your ecu chipped with? hondata? and how does the LC-1 work? like how do u adjust the a/f ratio with it? does it plug up to the ostrich controller? does your tuner tune it with the ostrich system? i thought you could adjust a/f with hondata? sorry for all the questions lol i just dont really understand how it all comes together.

where in qld are you located? if you dont mind me asking.

P.S sorry for spamming up your thread with the massive post :p

---

thanks for the replies guys... basically i just want to start buying stuff hey. but i dont know where to get it from. where did u pick up your turbo from? did you have to like order it from the U.S? "overnight parts from japan" :p

do you think i should just get an intercooler from ebay lol i would rather do it properly as i have a bit of cash but if they are no better then im happy to go imitation to save some dosh... cash in my pocket! what size is your intercooler Matt? i dont want one too big as i believe it can add to lag as it takes a bit longer to fill them.

isnt power FC really old? i remember hearing that somewhere. and yer if someone could help me out with what i need for engine managment that would be great! as long as its easy to tune, it idles well and does a good job im sold. i dont really care about launch control/hand controller and all that jazz.
*edit. thanks for the input matt... looks interesting. i would love to have a look some time. ill pm ya*

I will be running 10psi MAX but prob want to stick to 8 as i want it reliable as possible.

does the gt28rs bolt up to a t25 manifold or t28 or both? is anyone selling one (manifold that is)? i just want it short too as im pushed for room under the bonnet.

how do you hook up the water and oil lines? does the oil have to come from a sandwich plate between the oil filter and then return via the plug on the sump as it needs pressure or can it come straight from the sump. and what about water?

thats all i can think of at the moment but i just want to focus on getting the turbo, manifold and managment system for starters. references to possible sellers would be appreciated!

I cant actually start putting it together till i get another car. i just totalled my daily (ed sedan)... fell asleep and hit a tree lol (not all bad but. got a new paddock basher :D). so im driving my project car to work. should be about 3 weeks to a month when i wanna have all the parts ready to slap on... do it all over like a week.

thanks again for your input!

My name is Brad BTW. :)

Brad....

You can get all your parts here in aus...maybe even all on here. New or second hand.
If you want a new turbo go to GCG here http://gcg.com.au/turbo/turbodefault.aspx they sell all garrett turbo's. All sorts of different GT28 models. Remember theres alot of them not just gt2860r (disco potato). Just depends on what power u want and when you want it in terms of RPM.

Oil and water connect to your turbo with Banjo fittings. and oil dump needs a custom fitting to your sump... Oil feed comes from your Oil pressure sender just under your oil filter under your intake mani.

Water feed is a differnt story which i will need to show you picks i took of where i added mine...get to that later tho. Its very easy.

Power FC is fairly old. its been revised over the years but its still regarded as one of the best Management systems as its very easy to tune and almost all tuners know it so it doesnt complicate things. Hondata for me in perth would be a mission.

Ive used both China and Greddy intercoolers and they not much diff...air temps didnt change much...maybe .5 degree's at times...not worth it really...china ones off ebay are like less the $100 these days. Your right by saying you can get turbo lag where it takes a 0.2 of a second more to pressurize the intercooler because its bigger but trust me you wont even notice it. This is something that people have talked about for years but theres no real difference in my opinion. I went from a small cooler to larger and noticed nuthing in terms of lag.

most of the GT28's all fit on the T2(t25) flange so you will need to look at a manifold for that. You will need a short ram manifold, try and find a Steam pipe one. Can be new or second hand it will be as strong either way.

Just rem that hondata and the like uses a obd1 ECU, guess where they come from? Pre'96 cars.

The PFC came out in about 2000 and something. There is a guy who sells new units from Japan for $1000USD, let me know if you want his details.

i like the PFC its got a nice little hand controller you can view things with.

The hondata and other chipped ECUs normally have the advantage of launch control, and boost control. The PFC boost control is almost impossible to get, i tried.

If you need boost control the Eboost 2 is very good, there are a few others also

T25 & T28 is basically the same flange, the T2 is different.


WIth the turbo a GT2860R is nice, if you get a .64 rear the turbo will boost early, about 3krpm or so you will almost get full boost, but it will not come on as strong higher up.

With a .86 rear it comes on at about 4krpm, but keeps it harder.

So the rear depends on what you wanna run, a drag or track type car.

Fitting wise - braided if you can afford it. Its the only way safe way, i learnt the hard way :)

Exhaust 2 1/4 is almost abit small, 2 1/2 or 3" would be nice, but stick with what you have now, your tuner will know if you should go bigger.

I have a GT2871r, i should have gone the smaller rear i reckon, would have been good to see how it ran with a smaller rear.
My car gets full boost at 4,800rpm roughly, but it comes on harder than a GT2860rs.

Its the turbo game, you get abit of spoolup time loss for more power

Easy Brad :)

As fastfwd (what's your name btw?) said go to GCG, that's where I got mine, ask for Michael he's super helpful and might remember me as I've been there a fair few times!

Turbo wise, the T2 manifold flange will fit all xT2xx turbo's (T25, GT25, GT28 etc etc) and is your best bet, a custom manifold will be easily supplied with one of these but off the shelf mani's tend to come with T3 flanges for the larger framed turbos, so you need an adaptor - avoid this if at all possible.

Short ram is great for response and as I'm sure you've seen mine can look rather shmick. Go steam pipe as has been said as you'll get the confidence that it'll not break, some nice ceramic coating and your done. Mine was done @ Performance Exhaust in Northmead NSW as was Limbo's. Haks does do great work, although there was a little problem with mine and clearance, although I'd go back to Haks at the drop of a hat.

I have a Mishimoto intercooler from the states, it just happened to come up on crxaus and I grabbed it: http://www.mishimoto.com/mishimoto-u...all-black.html
It's a nice item, works well and is a great size. Either go for one on Ebay, or look around on other sites like skylines Australia's forum where you can pic up some good deals.

Injector wise, i'm using 440cc ones from a R34 gtr (I think might need to check my log to confirm) and they are good from around the 170kw mark I believe (have a friend running these numbers on a B16 with the same injectors and has been running for about 2 years now)

Water lines are a piece of piss, just take the source from the block just before the Throttle body, and return into the throttle body. I don't have any pics I have just realised, but can show you on the motor.

The oil doesn't have to come from a sandwich plate but if you do this means you can easily tap in gauges as all plates come with 4 source points.

EDIT: Thought all T2 flanges were the same? Also was going to recommend the .86 hotside over the .64

oil feed from a T piece is the most common (from the oil pressure send usually).

Yeah i'd recommend a .86 on a GT2860rs, on the larger GT2871 & GT2876, the .64 rear is prob, nice daily driving. End of the day its only a 1.6ltr

440cc is usually good for 200kw, so long as you upgrade your fuel pump, otherwise look at bigger injectors

T2 is slightly smaller than a T25 flange.


Yeah Haks did mine, i didn't have a prob with clearance..? what happed with yours Matt? i saw your manifold, it looked nice, i was thinking of getting mine adjusted afterwards to look like yours! (just didnt cos Haks gave me dirty looks LOL)

who chipped your ecu matt? reading back over your post im beginning to like it... i didnt know that you could do that with stock ecu's. like change them into a fully stand alone ajustable unit. crazy! because if its cheaper then something like a hondata id be more then happy to use it. and that would mean i could tune it at home hey.

haha im trying to reply but im at work and i gotta also juggle dodging the boss and getting some work done lol

thanks for your replies guys i knock off in half an hour!

B16 - my names Reece Btw...sorry should have mentioned that earlier.

MACDIZZLE heres some pics you may need in the future...you will need to get something like this done to your sump...i got my welded on there with a copper fitting to run large braided dump lines but you can also do it with tap fittings as some others have done and it will work just as well...

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...c/IMGP3112.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...c/IMGP3115.jpg

Also this is the block and intake mani sections u need to get water from and to....

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...DSC03255-1.jpg

btw thats on the left side of the block under the dizzy...hard to see from a close up pic but if you look at your car your motor u'll understand.

One more thing macdizzal if your confused a little...go over build threads. My build thread is just of my latest rebuild and turbo setup upgrade but its good for learning and getting overviews of things with pictures and such

heres mine....

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111167

Hey limbo, it's Matt, but never mind :p

Just a point of note, I'm still running my stock fuel pump, I do plan to upgrade it, but for anyone out there if you unit is working it's not a prerequisite.

Your using a ramhorn and Haks already has a working jig for them, mine was from scratch and the problem is that the wastegate does not clear the block webbing. This resulted in a crushed wastegate (between the turbo and the block) when the manifold was fully tightened onto the head. I can only assume that he had not fully tightened the mani on to check. It's not a drama, it did cause me some serious over boost and a new wastgate and longer rod, but it's shimmed now and working fine. I haven't told him yet, and as I said before would still go back to him for more work. But I'll wind him up a bit if I can!

lol that he gave you dirty looks!

My ecu was chipped by the oneandonly DXS (crxaus member, and probably lurking around here somewhere), he did his stock ecu and was playing with data logging etc, then put it up for sale so I grabbed it. It's easy to do your self, or you can get the bits and go to an auto elec to have it done if you don;t trust yourself - you can fry the circuit boards if you over heat them.

Not many people do know what you can do with the stock ecu, lots just follow the crowd, and rightly so, I'm not klnocking them, there is a lot of good things to be said with regards to Hondata and the like, and I may well even end up there in the future with my Stage2 Build....
But there are other ways and means, and if your prepared to step off the beaten path and do some research you can be rewarded. For example, it'll probably cost you 1/2 that of a Hondata system to set up, it'll cost you the same as a Hondata to tune, and once you have a good map, you can play with it and data log when your out on the track etc and refine the car endlessly to your hearts content, rather than forking out $$$ each time you want a retune.

my bad dude ;)

yeah i rem you had a wastegate inbetween the turbo & the engine. Can't comment, but you could be right. He does good work though, nice welds and he cleans up the inside really good for a nice flow.

I regret not getting the GT2860rs, i think it would have been a nicer track car. I got excited with more power and forgot that the basics that its only a 1.6ltr ;P

upgrading the pump is more of insurance, so that you get a consistant flow, especially when your wanting more fuel for those injectors

I've gone gt28r, gt2860rs and now gt2871r and i dont regret going larger at all.

only future will tell if i end up going gt30 or 35

but u have a built engine, on a stock motor its gonna loose power rather than gain much more without blowing up

well of course your cant go gt30 or 35 on stock motor but i wouldnt pass the gt2871r. I love mine. The 10psi im running now could be run on a stock motor safely.

yeah but i reckon it would be nicer on the .64 rear, rather than the .86 for my car.
I's like to try the .64 if i could, shouldn't have swapped the .64 for the .86

give that a try man...get a blown t28 they use the same exhaust housing dont they?

Hey mate

After reading your post It might be a good idea to buy a pre-fabricated turbo kit first time out or at the very lest read and learn for a few months more till you understand what's what.

Boosting a Honda's quite simple once understand it.

My Build Thread - Good and I do my own work on a tight budget
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108143

Limbos Build Thread - Good but Hao doesn't do all his own work
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113405

B16 Build Thread - Not Bad and Matt does his own work but needs improvement
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112287

FastFwD BuildThread - Excellent but a bit over the top for your needs http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111167

LukeZen

also regarding turbo size, check out the atp t3 gt2860rs (its t3 based so the housing is larger and will flow better to redline than the reg t28 flanged turbo), go an external gate if you can, otherwise if you want bigger i'd go straight to a gt30r in a .64 housing and skip the 2871 and 2876r. You will have better power with very similar boosting properties, with less back pressure too (hence the more power)

If you going a simple gt2860rs build, a log will suffice fine, otherwise go a mini ram or ramhorn manifold for better flow and wastegate placements etc.

hey Luke i do my own work ;p
just not all of it. I leave the hard bits to the experts

hey there,

i would suggest getting a decent intercooler not china brand... have a look at ARE intercooler they are abit expensive but they are excellent :) also for ecu i would suggest hondata s300... for your application i would use 400-600 injectors...

also i cannot stress that you get a decent manifold.. thats where the good power comes from.. i would look into full race manifolds that are great and produce power...

OR

theres a SPOOLIN turbo kit thats for sale and apparently they are quite good over the states :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Limbo

yeah but i reckon it would be nicer on the .64 rear, rather than the .86 for my car.
I's like to try the .64 if i could, shouldn't have swapped the .64 for the .86

---

i have a GT28R and a hybrid with .63 rears if you want to give it a try :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikeyG

hey there,

i would suggest getting a decent intercooler not china brand... have a look at ARE intercooler they are abit expensive but they are excellent :) also for ecu i would suggest hondata s300... for your application i would use 400-600 injectors...

also i cannot stress that you get a decent manifold.. thats where the good power comes from.. i would look into full race manifolds that are great and produce power...

OR

theres a SPOOLIN turbo kit thats for sale and apparently they are quite good over the states :)

---

All good adivce apart from the intercooler :p

This is one item you can go cheap on... on 10psi and below

Parts you should start with

GT2871R $1695
Intercooler $169

hey i just sold one of those JJR coolers there luke for $150 with a turbosmart boost controller and it was brand new :(

$1695 for brand new 2871R or $900 for Ryans 2871R with polished front housing :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lookingforboost

hey i just sold one of those JJR coolers there luke for $150 with a turbosmart boost controller and it was brand new :(

$1695 for brand new 2871R or $900 for Ryans 2871R with polished front housing :P

---

lol Ryan

I only post new items so they can't blame me if something goes wrong with the second hand stuff.. It’s up to them to hunt round for good deals.

Personally I brought most of my setup second hand without problems

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lookingforboost

hey i just sold one of those JJR coolers there luke for $150 with a turbosmart boost controller and it was brand new :(

$1695 for brand new 2871R or $900 for Ryans 2871R with polished front housing :P

---

Hey man can you send me the link to the sale thread?

so should i go the 2971 or stick with the disco potato? as it is for a track application im leaning ore towards the 28rs... as limbo said its better to loose a bit of power to increase the cars driveability through corners. i already have problems with wheelspin coming out of corners but im hoping i can fix that with an lsd.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EGB18CT

check out the atp t3 gt2860rs (its t3 based so the housing is larger and will flow better to redline than the reg t28 flanged turbo)

---

^^^ i like this idea as i spend the entire time in between about 5k and redline but that atp place list them at about $1400 australian plus postage... is that good? what does gcg charge for a standard 28rs?

got some 550cc injectors lined up... rx7 ones. apparently they fit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikeyG

also for ecu i would suggest hondata s300...

---

yer im going to use hondata... seems to be the easiest option

Reece... i read through your thread! interesting about the pcv system.

i have mine set up into a catch can at the moment going from the pcv valve to the catch can and then from the catch can to the IM but i think the actual pcv box is clogged? is that possible?

the hoses seem to be under allot of pressure like under allot of suction (the hose is crumpling in a bit) and i do get a bit of blowby oil in the can but no more then about 50ml in the last 6 months its barly high enough to see on the catch can oil level monitering hose thing...

im a bit concerned. is it possible to clean the pcv system out at all?

*edit* ive decided im going to do this http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1490117

thanks for the replies guys ive been doing heeeeeeaaaps of reading and i think i should be able to do this easy...

reps to the ozhonda community! you guys are legends!:thumbsup:

Yeah the PCV system is a pain on boosted Honda's

Ether vent both rocker cover and PCV (Black Box) to atom or plumb them both back via the pre-turbo piping with catch cans inbetween

RC 440CC is all that's needed for 10psi
And yeah the 71R with 0.86 would be better

what do you recon about using this? http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthr...turbo+manifold

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacDiZZle

what do you recon about using this? http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthr...turbo+manifold

---

Yeah AVO kits are quite good just need to buy a turbo + Hondata :thumbsup:

another bloke is selling a s200 will that be adequate or should i hold out for a s300

ha ha yeah i bought it for my civic but apparently i am changing it agian so hmm had ot sell it :P

a larger rear housing on a turbo will net you more horsepower in the end but not all ways driveablity for example a a .63 rear on a GT30 will spool up later then a .63 on a
T28 so its much of a mushness.

your main concern is to first workout what you want from the setup and set a power level for what you have and your money you have to spend. and work from there.

on a mild setup a T3 or T2 flange isent really going to matter and most T3 setups are T3 because they use an external gate setup like i am doing or because they are on a bigger capascity motor eg S15/14 and 13 use T2 flanged turbos R32/33/34 use T3 they have 6cyc and and silvias have 4 so there is a need for the larger flange.

running it on a standard motor you will never really see the true potential of a say a 2871R as your only going to be running low boost so your waiting for that extra lag for no more power.

Sorry i dont have any rep and cant put up stuff for sale on here atm so i dont have a link but if you want me to put up a pic thats cool i have a few different turbos here atm to.

but its a custom made turbo with the .63 rear caz i like the fast spool :P and has a enlarged front comp cover and T3 comp wheel and internals i was going to use it to run 20psi on my motor but have gone a different direction :P

yeah i had a GT28r with a .64 rear.
It spooled up at like 3krpm, but peaked out at high rpm in higher gears.
Need to run more boost to make them better, but on stock internal didn't bother.
With the 2871, its abit lagger but when full boost hits its alot more stronger

^^^ you needed the bigger comp wheel to keep the boost going the GT28R's are good and can run up to about 200RWKW on silvias the b wont get up to that without cracking the motor open :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lookingforboost

your main concern is to first workout what you want from the setup and set a power level for what you have and your money you have to spend. and work from there.

---

Im not actually that concerned on actual power number... any power increase is great and something like 150kw would help my track times heaps if i can get that. as i said earlier im more concerned about driveability. i dont want crazy amounts of boost up high with a huge lag down low but rather a steady power curve that will produce power right throught to redline. the turbo that will do that for me is the turbo i want lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lookingforboost

running it on a standard motor you will never really see the true potential of a say a 2871R as your only going to be running low boost so your waiting for that extra lag for no more power.

---

so do you think i should pass on the 2871r? ive tracked down a brand new one for $1300 so im tossing up weather i should get it

i think the GT28r is too big.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacDiZZle

Im not actually that concerned on actual power number... any power increase is great and something like 150kw would help my track times heaps if i can get that. as i said earlier im more concerned about driveability. i dont want crazy amounts of boost up high with a huge lag down low but rather a steady power curve that will produce power right throught to redline. the turbo that will do that for me is the turbo i want lol



so do you think i should pass on the 2871r? ive tracked down a brand new one for $1300 so im tossing up weather i should get it

i think the GT28r is too big.

---

NO NO GT28r is not to big in fact pros use GT30's with 0.63 rear for VTec B's

You need to remember hit'n VTec adds a huge amount air flow

Not to mention the smaller the turbo the higher chance of your motor going pop

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lukezen27

NO NO GT28r is not to big in fact pros use GT30's with 0.63 rear for VTec B's

You need to remember hit'n VTec adds a huge amount air flow

Not to mention the smaller the turbo the higher chance of your motor going pop

---

wonderful thanks lukezen now im really confused! :p what would YOU do if you were in my situation?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacDiZZle

wonderful thanks lukezen now im really confused! :p what would YOU do if you were in my situation?

---

If this was my first turbo build I'd buy a rev harder kit from the US hands down..

They come with a GT2871R plus everything you need witch is great coze you miss stuff left right and center building your own lol

Brad, when you can come for a drive in mine and you'll see what the 2860rs with the .86 rear feels. I love it! The 2871r is also a great size turbo.

Luke, I'm lacking understanding, why would a smaller turbo be more likely to blow up a motor?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by B16

Brad, when you can come for a drive in mine and you'll see what the 2860rs with the .86 rear feels. I love it! The 2871r is also a great size turbo.

Luke, I'm lacking understanding, why would a smaller turbo be more likely to blow up a motor?

---

Added heat man

The smaller they are the hotter they run at the same PSI

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by B16

Brad, when you can come for a drive in mine and you'll see what the 2860rs with the .86 rear feels. I love it! The 2871r is also a great size turbo.

Luke, I'm lacking understanding, why would a smaller turbo be more likely to blow up a motor?

---

To explain what lukenzen said...turbos have an officency rating. When the turbo runs outside of it officency rating it starts to cause more heat than good.

GT28's can run upto 28psi Theoretically but air temp that would be pushing out would be extremely bad for the motor.

it think your confused with turbos

GT28R - GT2560R
Next stage up - GT28RS - GT2860RS
Next stage up, then u have GT2871R & GT2876R

The u get to the GT30 range

Just rem that each turbo is bigger so they get laggier as they go up.

Also on a small turbo when they become less efficient they have a tendency to choke up the engine, & some of the exhaust does not pass through properly, which can lead to extra heat & motor pinging etc...


GT28R with a .64 rear would be the smallest i'd go, anything smaller than that is gonna choke up top.

ahhh thats makes more sense then lol i thought by GT28R you meant the GT2876R

the rest i knew

GT2876 is an odd turbo. It has problems due to its compressor turbine being too big for its exhaust turbine.

I'd stay away from that one if i were you. It was built for large twin turbo setups.

Biggest in the GT28 range would be the GT2871r, if you want bigger your better off going for a GT30 range

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by B16

Brad, when you can come for a drive in mine and you'll see what the 2860rs with the .86 rear feels. I love it! The 2871r is also a great size turbo.

Luke, I'm lacking understanding, why would a smaller turbo be more likely to blow up a motor?

---

sounds goods man! thursday alright?

I reckon...short ram manifold, gt2860r (AKA gt28rs, AKA Disco potato) China cooler...nothing to massive. Paint it black and mount it cleanly behind your stock bumper. Keep internal gate if you going to stay around 8psi. Hondata ecu, 400-500CC RC injectors. Get dump to cat 3inch then high flow cat and use your 2.25 exhaust for now That will be enough. I reckon you'll get 160kw on 9-10psi

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacDiZZle

Im not actually that concerned on actual power number... any power increase is great and something like 150kw would help my track times heaps if i can get that. as i said earlier im more concerned about driveability. i dont want crazy amounts of boost up high with a huge lag down low but rather a steady power curve that will produce power right throught to redline. the turbo that will do that for me is the turbo i want lol

---

Sounds like you want a disco potato (GT2860RS)


btw guys GT3071R and GT2871R both have 71mm compressor wheels and both have similar efficiency maps, the biggest difference between them is the turbine (the GT30 actually have more efficient turbines)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FastFwd

I reckon...short ram manifold, gt2860r (AKA gt28rs, AKA Disco potato) China cooler...nothing to massive. Paint it black and mount it cleanly behind your stock bumper. Keep internal gate if you going to stay around 8psi. Hondata ecu, 400-500CC RC injectors. Get dump to cat 3inch then high flow cat and use your 2.25 exhaust for now That will be enough. I reckon you'll get 160kw on 9-10psi

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZeForce

Sounds like you want a disco potato (GT2860RS)


btw guys GT3071R and GT2871R both have 71mm compressor wheels and both have similar efficiency maps, the biggest difference between them is the turbine (the GT30 actually have more efficient turbines)

---

im sold! gt28rs it is!!!! im still coming round to see urs but matt haha it will be my virgin experience in a turbo honda!:o

what a great thread :P this is by far one of the best i have read information wise :) just caz i can +1 rep for everyone :)

Limbo is spot on the money and with the 2876R you would be hard pressed to fit that one in the engine bay :P

The GT28RS will be prefect for what you want, and all the effeciency maps are avalible from Garrett as well as the comp maps and hp rating :)

Luke so pros use the GT30 hey...... i'll remember that :P

just rem that pros also don't drive their car as a daily driver

Thursday's not good form me Brad, sorry, Wed or Fri - I'm at Jambo for the whole weekend.

I know about efficiency maps but didn't really think that a really under under efficient turbo would creat that much excessive heat. There you go, learn something new everyday!

I was also thinking this was a pretty awesome thread, some bloody good info in here.

Yeh this has been a great thread...

its rarely you get someone saying "i wanna turbo my honda" and then actually having the money and time to back that claim up. Theres guys on here daily that post things like this but it sounds like you have the money and commitment to go ahead with it and i feel good that our advise will actually make a difference this time and not just go to a dead ended project.

Brad also remember we have only chatted about the power plant side of things. Theres alot to keeping 160kw stuck on the tarmac. Im only running 168kw atm but i have 235's at the front with an MFactory LSD and a Racing Series Exedy clutch and i have no traction at all in first and occasionally second.

What you done to the suspension?

also alot of people talk about brakes, I've only upgraded the fronts to the b16a2 setup in my eg and just some Sports pads and i dont have any problem with stopping. Some people upgrade to massive setups but imo i dont think its necessary well not for my car anyways. I would know if my car felt like the braking wasnt strong enough and if it did then i was upgrade but mine seem fine.

what brake upgrades you got?

also what tyres you running?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FastFwd

Yeh this has been a great thread...

its rarely you get someone saying "i wanna turbo my honda" and then actually having the money and time to back that claim up. Theres guys on here daily that post things like this but it sounds like you have the money and commitment to go ahead with it and i feel good that our advise will actually make a difference this time and not just go to a dead ended project.

Brad also remember we have only chatted about the power plant side of things. Theres alot to keeping 160kw stuck on the tarmac. Im only running 168kw atm but i have 235's at the front with an MFactory LSD and a Racing Series Exedy clutch and i have no traction at all in first and occasionally second.

What you done to the suspension?

also alot of people talk about brakes, I've only upgraded the fronts to the b16a2 setup in my eg and just some Sports pads and i dont have any problem with stopping. Some people upgrade to massive setups but imo i dont think its necessary well not for my car anyways. I would know if my car felt like the braking wasnt strong enough and if it did then i was upgrade but mine seem fine.

what brake upgrades you got?

also what tyres you running?

---

Thanks Reece...

Yer i have thought about all that stuff... i have tracked the car for the past 6 months and it currently has coilovers sold for dc2's all round. i dont know the spring rates but they are bloody hard! i hate driving to work everyday in it!

For brakes i have da9 hubs and disks on the front and back as well as da9 master cylinder, booster and prop valve. im going to go 20mm bigger tho up front with accord disks and prelude calipers! it should just squeeze under my 15" wheels. :thumbsup:

i also have ebc greenstuff pads and penrite sin brake fluid. the brakes go really good at the moment and i can thrash it all day at sprints till the rotors are almost glowing and still cant notice much brake fade.

for wheels i have 15" ce28 replicas with 195x50x15 potenza re001 tyres

My gearbox crunches in third and i really want a type r box so i can get the good gearing and the lsd in one hit... the other option is to pull apart my gearbox and replace the syncros and put an lsd in it but im real nervous about it... i dont wanna wreck it lol. is there any gearbox retoration threads getting around that anyone knows of that i can use?

ive also got a lightweight flywheel and gonna get a exedy heavy duty sports clutch.

my shifter is real dodgy... the shift linkages are just cut and welded stinge bucket ones and it makes gearchanges really sloppy. if anyone knows where you can get off the shelf shift linkages for a b series ed civic it would be great if they could share.

I have close the same setup as FastFwd :p

MFactory LSD
Exedy Sports organic clutch
ITR Brakes
TEIN SS Coilovers

Light weight flywheel is a waste of time on a boosted Honda IMO

All this stuff makes a huge difference in getting power to the ground and also stopping that power

You need a DC2/EG6 shift linkage bra

Ok dont be scared to open the box yourself. I opened mine for the first time and replaced my LSD with the Mfactory one. I accidently droped the gear shaft and all of the gears and sincro's fell apart and i was thinking how the fek would i put all this back together. Found a workshop manual on the net and i just had the order and i just placed it back together and its fine.

Theres alot of small tricky things when opening the gearbox which i had problems with but i got a video off stefan (zeforce) which he also used. Its a step by step guide into replacing gears and change the LSD in a b series box.

Im pretty sure all the b16 series boxes are similar in make but the only difference is the gear ratio's in some. I have been told that the tyre R ratios are alot smaller and are good for track but not for drag.

You might be better off just getting an LSD and some new syncro's. Will be alot cheaper than buying a type R box.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lukezen27

I have close the same setup as FastFwd :p

MFactory LSD
Exedy Sports organic clutch
ITR Brakes
TEIN SS Coilovers

Lightw weight flywheel is a waste of time on a boosted Honda IMO

All this stuff makes a huge difference in getting power to the ground and also stopping that power

You need a DC2/EG6 shift linkage bra

---

I got the race series clutch luke...i was too scared to go sports organic cos my last clutch was organic and i didnt have much luck with it.

race series not as bitchy to drive daily as people said it would be.

But yeh brad the Mfactory has worked well for me so far. when i boost it up to 20+ and theres 220kw atw's ill see how it holds up then but for now at 10psi its running fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FastFwd

I got the race series clutch luke...i was too scared to go sports organic cos my last clutch was organic and i didnt have much luck with it.

race series not as bitchy to drive daily as people said it would be.

---

Yeah I had the MFactory race clutch that lasted less than 2000km so I've gone the other way lol

Plus I hated the drive :o

I've cheated though as I'm using the MFactory presure plate with the organic clutch plate

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lukezen27

Yeah I had the MFactory race clutch that lasted less than 2000km so I've gone the other way lol

Plus I hated the drive :o

---

Yeh that was a b1tch for you hey...it annoyed me reading your threads about it.

I had fidanza sports organic before. US brand but i will only stay with exedy from now on.

Yeh i could imagine that people would hate the ride of my clutch but im not easily annoyed.

i also had the link but i didn't do it cos i didn't wanna get dirty :)
Also hanny's did mine cheap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lukezen27

You need a DC2/EG6 shift linkage bra

---

really? not that i dont trust you but are you sure?

in every swap guide ive ever read they say this:arrowd:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ekslut

b]SHIFT LINKAGE:[/b]

You have 2 options for a shift linkage. Get a Integra DA8 one and cut it shorter, then reweld it back together. Or you can get one from a company like Hasport. I chose the Hasport one, so that I knew it would be right, and won't break apart when driving hard.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacDiZZle

really? not that i dont trust you but are you sure?

in every swap guide ive ever read they say this:arrowd:

---

Sorry man i forgot ya got an ED :o

^^ he he

i am going to get an excedy cushioned button had one before and it was nice :) no one rates the fidanza flywheels?

Interesting build!

Any pics of your car!:thumbsup:

pm sent :)

GOT A TURBO! haha bought it at jamboree... i think i got a bit caught up in the exitment lol

i got it from one of those stall promo places! but the shop is this new place at acacia ridge... gave me a very very good price! better then i could get anywhere else but i had to buy it that day. so i was like mmmmm yer ok why not.

all i need now is a boost controller, some gauges and a turbo timer. woop woop!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacDiZZle

GOT A TURBO! haha bought it at jamboree... i think i got a bit caught up in the exitment lol

i got it from one of those stall promo places! but the shop is this new place at acacia ridge... gave me a very very good price! better then i could get anywhere else but i had to buy it that day. so i was like mmmmm yer ok why not.

all i need now is a boost controller, some gauges and a turbo timer. woop woop!

---

What turbo?

2860rs with a .86 rear of course!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacDiZZle

2860rs with a .86 rear of course!

---

SICK :thumbsup:

Sorry I didn't find ya pal, had a lot on.

How much did you pick it up for? Guess it sealed the deal with the ride in mine :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lookingforboost

^^ he he

i am going to get an excedy cushioned button had one before and it was nice :) no one rates the fidanza flywheels?

---

I got a 3.9kg lightened fidanza flywheel and i love it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FastFwd

I got a 3.9kg lightened fidanza flywheel and i love it.

---

The momentum lost is going backward on a boosted setup in IMO but each to there own I guess

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacDiZZle

2860rs with a .86 rear of course!

---

SAme as mine y0

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lukezen27

The momentum lost is going backward on a boosted setup in IMO but each to there own I guess

---

Yeh your prolly right but the difference isnt much...

I put it in while i was NA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lukezen27

The momentum lost is going backward on a boosted setup in IMO but each to there own I guess

---

i disagree... i think the the weight of the flywheel has a big impact on both acceleration and deceleration. in acceleration the engine can get the flywheel spinning quicker and continue to build up momentum quicker. As long as you have your foot planted and the engine is making power then that power is being applied to the wheels 'quicker' if you get what i mean. (especially as hondas dont have much tourqe in the first place).

it also helps in deceleration as when your down shifting the engine doesnt have to pull up this big heavy spinning chunk of metal... less centrifigal force (i think its called lol).

as long as you are driving with WOT and are shifting gears pretty quick. i only see a lightened flywheel helping. it would only be bad if you were cruising on the highway or maybe hillclimbs.??

just my opinion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacDiZZle

i disagree... i think the the weight of the flywheel has a big impact on both acceleration and deceleration. in acceleration the engine can get the flywheel spinning quicker and continue to build up momentum quicker. As long as you have your foot planted and the engine is making power then that power is being applied to the wheels 'quicker' if you get what i mean. (especially as hondas dont have much tourqe in the first place).

it also helps in deceleration as when your down shifting the engine doesnt have to pull up this big heavy spinning chunk of metal... less centrifigal force (i think its called lol).

as long as you are driving with WOT and are shifting gears pretty quick. i only see a lightened flywheel helping. it would only be bad if you were cruising on the highway or maybe hillclimbs.??

just my opinion

---

Your 100% correct in what your saying dude on an NA but on a heavier flywheel it builds up momentum being heavier so under load or on the freeway while the momentum has built up it gives the car a little more torque.

Removing some of that weight from the flywheel and you loose a little torque from the built up momentum of the heavier flywheel. On an NA build its a little different. 160KW b16a NA has a lot more torque than a 160KW Turbo b16a. i think thats why he meant on a turbo build its not necessary for a lightened flywheel.

Well thats just some sketchy info i've learnt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacDiZZle

i disagree... i think the the weight of the flywheel has a big impact on both acceleration and deceleration. in acceleration the engine can get the flywheel spinning quicker and continue to build up momentum quicker. As long as you have your foot planted and the engine is making power then that power is being applied to the wheels 'quicker' if you get what i mean. (especially as hondas dont have much tourqe in the first place).

it also helps in deceleration as when your down shifting the engine doesnt have to pull up this big heavy spinning chunk of metal... less centrifigal force (i think its called lol).

as long as you are driving with WOT and are shifting gears pretty quick. i only see a lightened flywheel helping. it would only be bad if you were cruising on the highway or maybe hillclimbs.??

just my opinion

---

hhmm

No

For one this statement is the complete opposite IMO

Edit I see what your says but still think heavier is better

""as long as you are driving with WOT and are shifting gears pretty quick. i only see a lightened flywheel helping""

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FastFwd

Your 100% correct in what your saying dude on an NA but on a heavier flywheel it builds up momentum being heavier so under load or on the freeway while the momentum has built up it gives the car a little more torque.

Removing some of that weight from the flywheel and you loose a little torque from the built up momentum of the heavier flywheel. On an NA build its a little different. 160KW b16a NA has a lot more torque than a 160KW Turbo b16a. i think thats why he meant on a turbo build its not necessary for a lightened flywheel.

Well thats just some sketchy info i've learnt.

---

Yeah and theres's a reason why the yanks change back to heavier flywheels when they start pushing out big numbers on there turbo setups

On our setup 160kw 200kw turbo I doubt theres much as you've said just a waste of cash if you don't already have one

This explains what i mean better then i can lol

"Ok, let's break it down to basics...

Mass = Inertia

Inertia = Resistance to motion change

If you have more mass, you have more inertia... and therefore more resistance to change in motion. Objects with more inertia require more force to change their direction/speed/motion than objects of lower inertia.

In the case of the heavy flywheel, that's more resistance to acceleration as well as deceleration. When your engine is spinning in neutral and you engage the clutch to start moving, the flywheel helps your engine overcome the added load of the car's mass... effectively, the inertia of the flywheel (spinning) helps to overcome the inertia of the car (sitting still, not wanting to move). If your flywheel weighs 20 pounds and your car weighs 2000 pounds, you can see that a 20 pound flywheel will help to move the car better than a 10 pound flywheel will. It resists the change in motion that the car is imparting upon it more than the lighter flywheel, so it will require less input from the engine, and start the car moving along a bit smoother.

Analogy:

Ever go bowling? Compare an 8 pound bowling ball to a 16 pound bowling ball. The 8 pounder is easier to accelerate (from the stopped position to you throwing the ball at higher speed) and easier to direct (aim). Your arm also gets less tired with the 8 pound ball. The drawback is that the ball loses more speed toward the end of the bowling lane, and may not knock down as many pins as you want. You also have to be more careful with controlling the direction of the ball, since it's easier to fling out the wrong way if your arm twitches or something The 16 pound bowling ball is harder to accelerate and harder to direct, but it carries more speed at the end of the bowling lane because of its higher mass (and resulting higher inertia). It knocks more pins down. It's also harder to send the ball careening into someone else's bowling lane, because it's harder for your arm to suddenly jerk it to the side.

Now relate this analogy to a car... the pins at the end represent your car's weight/mass, the bowling ball is the flywheel, and your arm is the engine. The lighter flywheel will be easier to accelerate and decelerate- so you'll have quicker starts, faster acceleration because the flywheel has less inertia to overcome, and quicker shifts because the revs drop faster when you let off the throttle. The downside is that you have to control the flywheel more, since the direction (speed of rotation) varies that much more. This is why people say that an "8 pound flywheel isn't good for a daily driver". I don't have any problem driving with mine. The heavier flywheel has higher inertia than the lighter one, so it will start your car from a stop more easily (knock down more pins), but it will hurt you everywhere else. It takes more force/power to accelerate (overcoming more inertia), doesn't allow you to shift as quickly (revs don't drop fast enough), but it is easier to drive because the speed of rotation doesn't change as rapidly as the lighter flywheel. Small changes in your throttle position don't change the revs as much, because the power blips are just soaked up in the heavier flywheel. This is why people might think that "a lighter flywheel takes more gas while cruising", because that lighter flywheel takes more attention at the gas pedal than the heavier one to maintain speed. The lighter flywheel will give you better gas mileage.. ever push that 8 pound bowling ball on the ground at a constant speed? Now try the 16 pounder- which one takes more energy to push? The 16 pounder. It's the same as the flywheel.

Do you lose torque with the lighter flywheel? Yes and no. You lose torque to start the car moving, since less energy is stored in the flywheel- so you have to apply more torque from the engine. On the other hand, you use less torque to overcome the inertia of the flywheel while accelerating and decelerating, so you can use the torque from your engine more effectively. You don't lose any torque when going to a lighter flywheel- you just change the source and application of torque in your car's drivetrain."

(btw this is not my stuff its off hondaswap.com) :thumbsup:

i think in a drag racing application it can be more benificial to have a heavier flywheel then it would in cuircut racing as you do not rely on acceleration and deceleration like you do on the track. i think its about striking it even for your style of driving.

its like most things in motorsport you give a bit here and loose a bit there. in the end its whether or not its making you go faster round the track (or down the strip if thats your thing ;) )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by B16

Sorry I didn't find ya pal, had a lot on.

How much did you pick it up for? Guess it sealed the deal with the ride in mine :p

---

Haha yep i loved it :D

got it for $1310 and a free garret hat and a free ticket to the finals on sunday :thumbsup:

NA ref yeah?

And I drag race not track so that's about right as to why I like the heavier flywheel.


PLUS I've had both setups

My last setup turbo I had a stcok 12kg flywheel for about a year..

When my clutch died and changed to a 3.9kg flywheel

I hated it, car felt weaker and didn't pull as well or as smooth

So if you track go light and if your 1/4 mile go heavy :)