http://www.farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html
Discuss.Quote:
JIC, GAB, Tokiko, Tein - synonyms for "crap"
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http://www.farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html
Discuss.Quote:
JIC, GAB, Tokiko, Tein - synonyms for "crap"
IMO
1)You get what you pay for, that will never change
2) If every street kid does it, means you should do your own research
Why I don't have coilovers or adjustable anything. Get it right first time.
The problem is that the Japanese brand coilovers are more expensive than more research intensive alternatives, and that people think that because they come packaged together with a spring that they are "perfectly matched". Simple preying on the ignorance of the market.
i think these days people are just after bang for buck.
people that are really serious abt suspension and handlng, wouldnt buy these brands and got straight for the top.
thats why i bought skunk2, and bought non adjustable dampers.
really, i only bought mine for the height adjustable, nothing else
There are many more brands of Jap coilovers not listed
^i notice that to
Showa N1 for life.
I think that the generalisation that all Japanese made 'coilovers' are junk is a little bit extreme. I agree that marketing seems to have convinced everyone that JDM yo coilovers are the goods, however I doubt that coilovers from ASM, Mines or Quantum are junk, although they cheat and use Sachs, and Quantum UK dampers :p.
Personally I would never buy a damper again without seeing a reputable shock dyno, something that is difficult to obtain from many of the Japanese damper manufacturers.
generally, the jap coilovers that people buy (cheaper bracket) are junk. They're either too harsh, lacking finesse or too soft.
Quality coilovers are available from japan, however. Only good experience I have with them is TODA fightex.
The products from germany such as bilstein and kw are in a different league, and not that expensive.
Local DMS is excellent too, slightly more expensive though.
im guessing the op was jdm bashing and being bias as he is a yank
he knows his shit but
most of us are hard parkers lol
and many of those mentioned are not readily available here in oz, to the normal car modifiers
but jdm crap coilovers suffice to many of our road conditions and needs
thats why we buy them cheap and made for our cars
how many people got those mentioned in his post
not many i bet on here
A bit extreme saying they are crap. They still make the car handle better then stock suspension on most. In saying that, I still ended up choosing a set of DMS coilovers :)
Good read, thanks for the link :thumbsup:
Comments? hmm
Suspension really is a dark art in Aus for the average enthusiast. Except in race setups, noone really wants to do the research to find a shock/spring combo that is perfect for their car, and much less do they know how it all works as an entire connected system. And as chargeR said, shock dyno graphs are difficult to get a hold of if you are looking deeper into getting the best setup for your car.
I myself am guilty of this, having bought some off the shelf coilovers for my car - they get the job done, but i am well aware there are better setups out there. I guess it boils down to what you want from your car. Do you want a fun little car, or do you want a laptime smashing warrior? etc
I agree with what lan said - most people just get what is convenient for them, not what might be the most suitable.
All IMO of course :)
Well said Alex.
Jap stuff = overprice.
best handling i have felt was standard ITR shocks/springs on my eg.
But i got coilovers because price / resale / adjustment. Not because they make the car handle any better.
String that link you posted was very interesting. When I bought my ex rally EG6 late last year I was a bit disappointed that there was no external adjustment facility for the shocks.The constructor of the car said that he had developed the suspension over 10 years and 18 rallies in conjunction with the shock/ spring supplier (Joe Wilson of Heritage Motorsport) and for various technical reasons no external adjustment facility was ever contemplated. I think he said it took 3 or 4 attempts at a setup before he felt it was "right". I have adjustable Konis on my other competition car (a Swift GTI) and I have found the best way to get somewhere near what I want is to send them back to Koni for a rebuild/revalve. The external adjustment facility has never inspired me with confidence. I guess it all depends on what you pay and what you are planning to do with your car. The setup on my Honda would cost I believe somewhere around 7 or 8 grand to replicate although this is still cheap compared to what some people will pay. If you look at the Brindabella car club web pages you will find a discussion there on the "best" shocks . Someone speaks very highly of Ohlins that cost around 20 grand and have to be sent back to the supplier for a freshen up every two events !
Steve
That's just ridiculous!
Yep I agree. But motorsport costs can be pretty over the top. It is all relative. Twenty grand would not go too far on even one shock on a Formula one car LOL.
Steve
So true steve :)
It took around 6 months of fiddling to find the right setting on my Koni Yellows. I wasn't happy with the setup until I found the magic spot, and completely understand the disappointment of others perhaps not so diligent in their tuning efforts.
Nice Find. Everything that he says in the post is true and backed by fact however to me... It seems more like a reinstatement (just in detail) of the bleeding obvious. As string suggested we are a victim of our own market. Sure the majority of us would love a set of bilsteins/ohlins with carefully researched and matched springs. However, when it comes down to it well over 90% of us don't have the time/money/resources to do the research.
We also have a need of adjustability mainly of ride height, due to the fact the majority of our cars have to be able to be "street legal" (or at the very least, have the ability to be driven on the street comfortably).
We are all driven by our needs, I'm sure if we wanted to dig deep into suspension geometry we would be looking at similar equipment.
Good quality coilovers will provide better handling than standard shocks and springs, however the cheap ones won't. The difference is particularly with R-spec tyres also...Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
With regards to the original post, it's pretty much like everything else. Start comparing a civic chassis to a lotus chassis and you'll wonder why anyone buys a civic chassis...
...untill you realize that not everyone wants to or can spend that much money on a chassis...
...and sometimes people just like to make crap things go fast :-)
hahaha crap thing go fast for way lessQuote:
Originally Posted by STiR
where can i get some 6-7k coilovers in brisbane?
From memory I think the Seperate Tank or the N1 TODA FIGHTEX will go close to that from Adrian @ TODA! haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by 90LAN
I thought I'd posted that link a few times (maybe it was on another site...).
Most 'coilovers' are a triumph of marketing expertise over engineering competance, you don't necessarily get what you pay for...
The quality of a seriously good damper will not only show up in handling, but also in longevity. Good dampers last a long time, and are the foundation of any good (or bad...) suspension set up. They are more important than the springs.
Koni dampers aren't that expensive. Even once you pay for a set of stiffer springs on top the're still competitive on price with most of the aftermarket 'coilovers'. My understanding is that Bilstein are more expensive (and you might need to order them?), but they won't be prohibitvely expensive compared to the more expensive 'coilovers' (especially considering what you get for what you pay, arguably the best damper short of top shelf specialised racing units such as Penske etc. Stock on Porsche for a good reason....).
In my own experience I have used the following on different cars:
1. Bilstein PSS9 on STi and s2000
2. DMS 40mm Gold and 50mm tarmac rally on R34 GTR V-Spec
3. KYB race shocks from suzukisport on suzuki ignis sport
4. Koni adjustable shocks on WRX hatch
5. TODA FIGHTEX DA on EG civic
6. Numerous TEIN coilovers on other cars
Value for money, you can't beat a KONI with matched spring (must have the shock dyno tested to determine appropriate spring rate, but gets expensive then).
Best performing shock would have to be the PSS9, however stock springs are too soft for real track work. Combined with eibach race coils they are excellent, quiet and don't need to be serviced.
So far I've been very imperssed with the finesse of the TODA FIGHTEX shocks. The ride is not harsh at all in my civic, despite having reasonably firm springs (8.7k F 7.x k rear, measured).
The DMS perform very very well on the GTR, however they are noisey in their operation and do require regular servicing and/or rebuilding.
Base model TEIN stuff we came across was just junk. Their more expensive ones are decent I hear, but I'd rather buy bilstein.
Friends use KW in their cars (variant 3) and they seem to be an excellent option to bilstein as well. Used on Manthey's Nurburgring 24hr winning Porsches.
For Honda - buy KONI, Bilstein or FIGHTEX. Because they are proven to work and last.
I'll sell you my D2's for 6k! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by 90LAN
There's purple and shiz. Offer almost zero body roll. It's like driving on solid rods welded to the strut and LCA. HECTIC ULEH.
i would thats a good deal nigsQuote:
Originally Posted by nigs
but my car would handle like a boat of Moreton Island
and when i decide to turn the rear ass will slide out all the time
because it cant handle the power :thumbsup:
coilovers..people will never understand
That'll be the people who buy them...Quote:
Originally Posted by tekung89
LOLOLOLOL.
Would you guys like a soap box with that?
OOoo thank god i have koni yellows.. good read =)
Interesting read.BTW i have Bilstein/Eibach.excellent setup for the Euro.I keep trying to tell the guys with Euros that this is the way to go, not coilovers.
Tony,
Good choice.
Note that any spring with the same spring rate and length will behave and drive the same as the Eibach springs. Springs are springs, and the only difference between any two of the same rate and length will be resistance to saggging (or fracturing, rare but does happen).
the difference between a quality spring and rubbish is that when you test the rates out of the box you'll find you got what you paid for... And that they're the same left and right!
And test them after a year... Sagging is a problem if you drive fast and push hard.
Does any one know where there is a shock dyno to test the shock i have on my car at the moment
Stir,
Have you tested spring pairs for equality of rate? I have to say that I haven't, but I'd be surprised if there would ever be any significant rate difference between one spring and another if:
1) The wire OD were the same.
2) The number of coils were the same.
3) The coil diameter were the same.
4) Neither spring had a crack.
5) The free length were the same (though this wouldn't actually affect the real spring rate, only how much static weight that spring, relative to the other spring of the pair, carried when fitted to the car).
The reason for this is that nearly all steels (and all that are remotely likely to be found in a car spring) and regardless of the heat treatment of that steel, the modulus of elasticity is the same to within an utterly insignificant degree. So, for spring A to have a different rate to spring B, there would have to be some significant difference in physical dimension, not in some hidden metalurgical property of the springs...
Just speculating, but I suspect that spring companies tend to say things like "tested to ensure equal rate" (etc) because it sounds impressive in the marketing bumph. I'm not suggesting that they claim to test the springs but don't, I'll bet they do test them but for a slightly different reason(?).
I suspect what they may do is to compress each spring to X length to see if this causes the spring free length to shorten (or less likely for the spring to break), i.e. they are more likely to be testing the elastic limit of the spring (to ensure adequate heat treatment) than to be testing the actual spring rate (though while they're at it they may as well check rate just so they can say they do...).
If a spring (A) is too soft (heat treatment not rate), then it will have a low elastic limit and shorten if compressed beyond that elastic limit. If a spring (B) is too hard then it will also have a low elastic limit, but may break rather than permanently deform. A correctly 'hardened' spring (C) will have a higher elastic limit than either A or B, but A,B and C will all have the same stiffness (rate) up to their individual elastic limits. Incorrect 'hardness' could be a result of poor heat treatment, or faulty material.
So considering that all springs made to X dimensions will be within a cat's whisker in rate, testing the spring by compressing it may be more to do with quality control for spring longevity.
Hey guys, glad to see you enjoying the site. There is more info coming once I get settled in and get writing.
A couple of comments though:
1. I am NOT a Yank. I am Canadian, thank you very much - Commonwealth country, Queen Liz and all that.
2. I have nothing against the Japanese - my race car was a Mitsubishi, as is my daily driver. Great cars. But the Japanese aftermarket has yet to build a shock that crossed my dyno and passed my tests. And boys, my tests are *easy*. Accordingly, without a dyno plot to prove otherwise, I assume all Japanese aftermarket shocks are steaming piles of grade-A crap, because I have yet to see an example that demonstrates otherwise.
3. So let's say that you've dropped a bunch of coin on a set of Japanese aftermarket shocks, and you think they're the best thing since Vegemite. Based on my experience, I'm going to go with "crap" - and the amazing human ability for self-deception, especially when money has been spent and egos are on the line. There is a way to prove me wrong - dyno the shock. Until such time as you have verified the shock on a dyno, what you own is far more likely to be a telescopic turd than THE diamond in the rough.
Why so extreme? Because gents, I dynoed hundreds of shocks, and the only ones worth a damn were Bilstein, Koni, Ohlins, Penske, Sachs, and Dynamic Suspension. Everything else was an utter horror show.
If you are at all serious about suspension, you will not buy anything without a dyno sheet. If your shock guy cannot or will not do it, find another shock guy, because the one you have is ripping you off.
Springs: you'd think that a spring would be simple. Wire diameter, number of coils, free length... Bob's your uncle. It doesn't work out that way in practice. I have had a set of "purple" springs off a customer's expensive Japanese Industrial Company aftermarket coilovers differ by 14% on the spring tester. My pass mark is 3%.
Don't believe me? Buy or make a spring tester and see for yourself.
On average, springs aren't the horror show that shocks are... but you get what you pay for.
The lesson here is TEST EVERYTHING - take no marketing department's word for it; test it yourself.
DG
wow, thanks for the above, i spent plenty of time reading your article, glad i bought koni's.
I had a 'green' set of street coils - the shocks felt terrible, coming from a koni/H+R setup. It also felt as if they weren't even working.
i must say, we're honoured to have the DB guy himself on here. Thanks very much :thumbsup:
But i also must add most of us aren't serious shock enthusiasts as we only enjoy what we have to limited degrees.
We've tested spring pairs and they are not always the same... you'd expect them to be!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnL
my JIC coilovers came with a dyno shock result sheet.. its in japanese but i'd be more than glad to post up if someone wants to translate... alse we have a shock dyno at work.... i shoul dof put them on t heir before they went on the car -_____-
maybe in a years time
Be sure that shock dyno plot is for YOUR shocks (as in, the very same shocks on the car were the ones tested) not a "representative" plot.
DG
RecceDG: I like your info, nice work!
Oh btw, Dodge Stealth is the Mitsubishi GT0/3000GT in Dodge clothing right?
I went to the states in '94 and brought back a scale model of one, used to love 'em....lol
You have to consider the fact that the person who originally wrote that article - was talking about a setup for a FULL race car.
Not, coil overs to handle better on the street.
Anyways, kind of turned me off now...
Anyone here running any of the brands he mentioned other then Koni?
The guy who wrote that article posted two posts above you. Good dampers are just as important for street handling as they are for the track.Quote:
Originally Posted by aramiK
ohlins ftw!
I see ~ didn't really read past the first page of replies.Quote:
Originally Posted by chargeR
Thanks for pointing it out :)