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need new RTA bushings and unsure of whether to go OEM or Hardrace
ive read a few threads here and most people say only use oem/mugen/hardrace, and stay away from ES polyurethane stuff..
but no one has really mentioned the difference b/w oem and hardrace
from what ive gathered OEM is more durable and longer lasting, whereas hardrace is stiffer so not as durable
anything else?
I find OEM is like soft rubber (more comfort) but its weaker and less durable.
oh, i thought its the other way around?
so are you saying that hardrace would last longer?
also taking into account the oem bushings are $96 each...
A stiffer (But not more brittle) polycarbonate is more durable than a softer one.Quote:
Originally Posted by anzai
OEM is soft and comfy (And last like 10-15 years anyway)
Hardrace claim to be stiffer, and i can't imagine they'd ware out quicker than OEM if they're quality parts.
I tried Energy Suspension Bushings (PU i think) and it was like rock hard rubber (but not brittle) compared to OEM. My OEM bushings had some cuts and tears on it, i dont see this happening to PU bushings.
The new bushings was a lot stiffer, it didnt absorb vibration as well.
im looking at replacing the RTAs on my EG8 at the moment - these seem to be my options
OEM and ES would be about the same for durability but ES will be a little stiffer
Hardrace Rubber will be a bit better for durability and a little stiffer again than ES
than Hardrace Spherical Bearing will be a bit stiffer again but have the longest lifetime of them all
the spherical bearing types are alot easier to dial in to center from what i read as well - but they are alot more expensive
OEM > Energy Suspension > Hardrace Rubber > Hardrace Spherical Bearing
need more inputs guys, still havent decided on which rta bushings to get =(
I used prothane rta bushings on my ek4 as they came with the pin separately so you don't need to retain your OE pin - unlike with the ES bushings...
Maybe have a look at their prices compared to mugen & hardrace. Quality seems good, i cant give an opinion on the bushings alone as I had coilovers installed at the same time..
I just had ES polyurethane ones put in. They were $55 shipped so ordered them straight away too cheap! If i was to do it again i'd go with hardrace though since they come with the sleeve thing, much easier to install, just press out and press in. Worth the extra coin imo.
I didn't notice a difference between OEM and ES, and doubt you'd really notice a big difference with hardrace/mugen unless your stock ones are completely rooted. So whatever works out to be cheapest go for it i reckon
oem is $35usd/ea exc. shipping
52385-S21-003
shipping to AU would probably be $40-50
not 52385-SR3-000 os?
that has been superceeded by s21Quote:
Originally Posted by anzai
there was a service bulletin floating around the intarwebz to replace sr3 with s21
s21 is cheaper by $20usd/ea as well
and of course, all this knowledge comes from personal experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSaint
Dfuff, gonna Dfuff
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them allQuote:
Originally Posted by TheSaint
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
Hardrace Spherical Bearing have the longest lifetime of them all
http://www.gifsoup.com/view/748214/d...ace-palm-o.gif
Super Pro Polyurethane bushes have a compliance version available which gives you a voided bush - this allows some movement in the bush and it also comes with a new pin and no need to re-use the original shell either.
http://203.31.191.243/fulcrumCat/img.php?id=3634
Quote:
Originally Posted by mocchi
ohy yeh i saw that
ok.... ebay it i suppose?
but hardrace is $125/pair, cheep cheep
looks gimmicky.Quote:
Originally Posted by senna
Any hard data or personal experience on them?
Guys
Oem is only $60 ish each. That's $120 ish a pair. And will last 10+ years IF dialed into your correct height.
Better than any other Rta bushes
Quote:
Originally Posted by senna
While you are Plugging this design - I have to disagree and state this design is no good.
Under loads or sudden hits ( potholes etc) these bushes actually go dynamic ( ie pull out of spec). They WILL slide on that rod and allso only give to axis movement where retained bushes like OEM give total movement. When this design tries to move in a certain axis it can't it simply slides along the rod which can alter toe. Dangerous.
I had the same design on my last civic and I had to align quite frequently.
same design like pedders bushes, i dont understand why they design bush to allow side movement?Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
never thought this design was good but wasnt exactly sure why.
only because it wasnt like oem.
dat der personal experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
chuck gonna chuck
I did a bit of research regarding this before I bought mine.
I was gonna go all polyurethane stuff, but after some reading, its apparently not the best.
While nice and stiff and predictable while brand new, they can distort under hard driving, and because they're just plastic, stay distorted.
They also deteriorate quicker, and will last half the kms than rubber.
Hardrace is rubber, but 150% harder than stock
my local parts dealer quoted $97 incl GST each =SQuote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
its been 3 years now and my hardrace rta bush is still like new.Quote:
Originally Posted by trism
im not dumped, just lowered around 1-2 finger gap
idk if im gonna keep the eg for another 7yrs to find out hardrace vs oem lmzo
I bought them after being having Es poly inserts for awhile for about $67 each off the topQuote:
Originally Posted by anzai
Of my head. Remember price differs at Honda dealers.
But Ill let you in on a little secret. $60 ish more for 10 years use isn't something to worry about.
If these were $150 each I'd still buy them.
This is the reason these stupid poly replacement bushes exist....for
Tightasses that hear " STIFFER THAN OEM " and " CHEAPER THAN OEM".
Surely it must be better ? Rofl
im staying away from poly ES stuff for reasons outlined on the 2nd page...
if HR is 150% harder than oem, its harsher but better steering response?
you wont be able to really feel the difference man. esp with coilovers / low profile tires.Quote:
Originally Posted by anzai
flip a coin for oem/hardrace and be done with it
since theyre all rubber and cost the same
Hmm. Harder isnt proven to be better. I would think maybe the material is denser but will absorb more force and will deteriote.Quote:
Originally Posted by anzai
Put it this way - hardrace is copy parts , not grossly engineered / designed like MUGEN or J's RACING oem replacements. Only time will tell if these hardrace bushes last.
I worry that yet again , you lot are falling for this "hardrace y0 150% harder = BETTER". Rofl. That , and its alot cheaper than OEM parts.
oem is actually cheaper if he was to buy from US.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
well there u go. The man says it how it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by mocchi
All you kids dont drive race cars.
Im only going to say one more thing
OEM > all other replacement bushes.
yeh ur right lololQuote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
where do you guys buy parts from the US?
ive been trying to get something from oemacuraparts.com and they dont seem to want my business
i was looking at ebay but there not that much cheaper too
I'm not going to say that anyone is wrong or that the product i have posted above is 100% correct for everyone's use, however I disagree that the longevity is compromised just because it is poly. I personally haven't seen an issue with this bush sliding on its post, however after around 60+ kits sold I don't see every application after real world use.
In our workshop we have used all forms of bushes, Nolathane (fail - too hard), Noltec (extreme fail - no consistency, crumbles) and Superthane (too hard also) and we settled with the Super Pro brand because they do things correctly and develop their bushes and also the alloy and steel shell bonding process is much more advanced which reduces the risk of separation.
In alot of cases Hardened rubber or OEM is a good option, polyurethane has its place in the performance market too.
go to k20a.org and pm bodyman/cjm/rbnsjh, they work at autofair honda.Quote:
Originally Posted by anzai
good blokes.
btw os, honda dealer only stock 52385-sr3-000 apparently
This i definitely agree with. :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
I can see by that design you displayed , that it has come some way - the slight arch grooves would obviously prevent some of the distortion etc. Good to see they (poly bush designers/sellers) are trying to keep it in the market.Quote:
Originally Posted by senna
Much better than the ES soild lug I used some time ago.
Can i ask , do these designs you state use some form of lubrication internally (on the lug) or sit dry with grooves etc ?
go to k20a.org and pm bodyman/cjm/rbsjnh, they work at autofair honda.Quote:
Originally Posted by anzai
good blokes.
As Ive already received a complaint about my opinions
Can I requote myself - and say that IMO , OEM bushes (for majority of hondas owners here) are far superior to all other brands. This is due to superior comfort , longevity and quality of product.
If you drive race car. Go elsewhere.
That's why we use Super Pro, they actually develop their product rather than flat out deny there is anything wrong with it...lolQuote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
The kit is provided with a lubricant developed by super pro to repel water (stops the lube being flushed away when wet) and the internal surface of the bush has a helix design moulded into it so that the lubricant isn't pushed straight out when the post is installed but at the same time there is still material contacting the post to hold it in place.
I agree with most of your statements in this thread but you must realise that the toe arm is what is going to limit the movement in the side to side motion of the front of the trailing arm (left to right of the car when looking at it from the rear). The trailing arm bush is not designed to resist this motion, nor should it as it will bugger up the intended toe control of the toe arm with suspension bump and droop. Spherical bushings for this location have the pin completely free to slide, as it should be, and no-one complains about spooky rear toe with those designs.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
Also OEM is good and when ordered from the US is practically the cheapest, or close enough. I got a pair of bushes and the tools to press them in and out for less than $190 and the tools made up more of the cost than the bushes.
Is that the tool where you can leave the whole trailing arm assembly on the car and use the tool to press the RTA bush in and out?.. Also I'm guessing you won't need wheel allignment afterwards too.Quote:
Originally Posted by chargeR
Was thinking of purchasing this.. Is it any good?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chargeR
Cheers for that input , let me add that the rear would slide and either lock alittle either side of its original position , or actually have travel when the OEM design would not budge.
An alignment would still be a good idea since the previous set-up would've been done with failed or deteriorating rubber, so you don't know where its going to be once replaced with good unitsQuote:
Originally Posted by egb16b
Ben,Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
You should've known better to be posting defamatory statement without knowing better. I have personally walked into HR factory and all the rubber density/mixture are specially formulated in house.
We are merely providing an alternative harden rubber type bushes for the budget conscious consumers without paying double or triple the price of Mugen or OEM with half the longevity.
I do not personally have anything against anyone who voice their opinions but you saying "hardrace is copy parts" "will deteriote" without first hand experience is just pure ignorance.
Yes, we stand by our products 100% and will defend any uneducated remarks.
No the tools I got were really just two bits of pipe the right size to aid pressing the bush out of the RTA. One the same outer diameter as the bush, the other roughly the same inner diameter as the outer diameter of the bush. Oddly though the larger one wasn't the right size, so I just used a bit of pipe.Quote:
Originally Posted by egb16b
Yeah I thought that was what you meant, but it wasn't clear in your post. It was binding on the pin.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
I would reserve judgement until someone has run 10+ years and 200,000km on a set of Hardrace RTA bushes. Honda got it wrong the first time, I wonder if Hardrace got it perfectly correct. I doubt it.Quote:
Originally Posted by EG5
so i called ringwood honda and they got:
52385-SR3-003 (not sr3-000) for $78 each
52385-S21-003 for $106 each
mind is full of fk
i thought s21 was supposed to be cheaper??
and is the sr3-003 the same part?
Prices vary a lot around the planet. LINKQuote:
Originally Posted by anzai
Quote:
Originally Posted by mocchi
Quote:
Originally Posted by anzai
Quote:
Originally Posted by mocchi
Quote:
Originally Posted by anzai
go to k20a.org and pm bodyman/cjm/rbsjnh, they work at autofair honda.Quote:
Originally Posted by mocchi
good blokes.
lol i get your point, but which part # am i getting??? apparently the s21-003 doesnt fit snug
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3024027
or would they all fit just fine?
im thinking of getting the sr3-003, and tbh im not comfortable with buying from those k20a guys, dont want to be one of them guys who sign up on a forum only to buy and sell shit
up to you man, its your car and your money.
but i would trust honda bulletin more.
im telling you to pm them because sometimes oemacura will charge ridiculous shipping price.
just trying to help you.
good luck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anzai
best way to do it?
ring up your local honda dealer and quote them your chassis code, they will supply the correct bushing for you car. no hassle.
EG5 , please do make a false accusation upon my self of "defamatory comments". I do realise you a distributor in Oz / on this site....Im not dissing you personally as I am telling the community not to fall for buzz words/statistics and think about a purchase beforehand. Im sure you can see me "diss" another traders products in this very thread - HE responded very maturely and constructively. This is a thread for discussion. I will personally always push your products where people ask me personally , but you sell both OEM and hardrace so back oem for the right reasons and back hardrace for the right reasons too. Not just suggest a senior admin "...should know better" :0)
This thread is titled " OEM vs hardrace" - in which , IMO from experience and train of thought - OEM is superior - Yonas this is about discussion , bring out some info for everyone to back up claims of 150% harder etc.
What is the current longevity on hardrace mounts etc ? Any reports of failures ?
Dont stir up trouble u mad?
http://mmajunkie.com/files/2006/12/061207mccarthy.jpg
oh btw gor if you buying rta bushes from US let me know, i wanna buy spark plugsQuote:
Originally Posted by anzai
i took out the plugs from my engine and forgot where i put it.
http://chzsomuchpun.files.wordpress....e1f2851bb8.jpg
I would recommend hardrace as the alternative to mugen or spoon (which are re-branded Oem stuff anyway). HardRace has a track record amongst people who track a lot and having used their stuff, it pretty good. As for copying, I mean how different can you go in design of a bush anyway.
Front Hardrace arm and spherical bearing.
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...f76d92236c.jpg
Rear hardware trailing arm spherical bearing.
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...dd0b4a540f.jpg
Oem or hardrace, i'd go hardrace.
lol why u buying spark plugs from the states?Quote:
Originally Posted by mocchi
ngk copper 4.50 each from bursons
Hey e240 , cheers for the input - why exactly would you go hard race over OEM ?
What bushes did u run in the old blue eg ?
Ben,Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
I'm all for open discussion... but did you read what you posted on page 4? it wasn't discussion, it was a statement.
OEM RTA bushing is rated at 58A
HR RTA bushing is rated at 75A and with a TOTALLY different inserts design that is HR original.
no reports of bushes failures, I do have a customer coming back with broken bush due to poor DIY effort.
Regards
Hey Ben, for one, Oem feels quite will willowy (if there was such a term), especially coupled with firm suspensions. When you move onto HR, one of the first things you will feel is that it's a lot firmer, then again, most people replace when their bushings are sh.t anyway, so anything new in there would feel firm - but I had the advantage of moving directly from OEM to ES to HR (and tracked with all of them). The ES were good (and simple to install) and did the job but moving to HR in the 2nd year, there was difference and the car did handle better, all things being equal. I subsequently reverted the eg to daily street duties before it got stolen mid last year, it was good for some midnight runs :-p , but also good on a day to day basis.
For price and performance, I'd go hardrace over Oem, as for longevity, well, I've not seen any complaints by internet warriors about it so I assume everyone's happy.
What plugs you need? I have new Denso IK22 and IK24s that I no longer need... :-p
Quote:
Originally Posted by mocchi
hey os, look what i foundQuote:
Originally Posted by mocchi
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w.../BULITEN-1.jpg
dated 2006
so apparently the sr3 is the one to get..
it says the failed part is sr3?Quote:
Originally Posted by anzai
post here the whole pdf link
click on the pic
its very contradictory
http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/Ho...150912_zzz.pdf
it says failed part number is the sr3.
what makes you think s21 is the failed part?
no, that 2006 pdf says to use sr3 and the failed part is also sr3, so mind is full of fck
similar to this 2002 bulletin, where it says to use s21 and failed part is sr3.
buy hardrace then, similar price and i can vouch 3yrs daily usage its still vgc.Quote:
Originally Posted by anzai
not slammed ride height.