Start clutch failure & solution

There were discussions touching on this before but I wonder if anyone actually confirmed they had a start clutch failure and what resolution resulted.

Few weeks ago, my auto Jazz 1.4 started to behave strange. It does not violent shudder but there is a mild but definite shuddering when the car starts up from rest. This is more evident when the car starts from rest while on a hill - and travels up the hill.

The shudder occurs for a short time, around 1/2 sec and then disappears. It happens when RPM is between say 1500 to 2000 RPM. It does not shudder once the car is in motion - regardless of engine rpm or speed.

And if I start moving real smoothly, pressing acelerator nice & easy, the shudder does not appear. But if I step on it (as in WOT), the car shudders when moving off from rest - and in this case, the shudder is very evident.

I suspect this is a start clutch problem but wonder if anyone else encountered a similar symptom.

- Did anyone had a confirmed start clutch failure?

- If so, what was the solution

- How much did it cost you and how long did it take?

My car is unfortunately out of warranty (by a year plus, car is 4 years+ old) - so any repairs by Honda dealer will be almost inevitable, unless (not sure about this) this is a recall issue. In which case, do I just pay for workmanship & the parts are free?

While I'm almost sure this is a start clutch failure, I will try different things to "fix" or reduce the effects - such as resetting the ECU computer (via methods in the Jazz service manual).

I did think of replacing the clutch myself but after looking at the darn Jazz manual, it freaks me out - you even need a special tool to open the inside of the CVT mechanism to get to the start clutch, process is really too hard & risky.

I'm not a happy person at this time. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lokets

There were discussions touching on this before but I wonder if anyone actually confirmed they had a start clutch failure and what resolution resulted.

Few weeks ago, my auto Jazz 1.4 started to behave strange. It does not violent shudder but there is a mild but definite shuddering when the car starts up from rest. This is more evident when the car starts from rest while on a hill - and travels up the hill.

The shudder occurs for a short time, around 1/2 sec and then disappears. It happens when RPM is between say 1500 to 2000 RPM. It does not shudder once the car is in motion - regardless of engine rpm or speed.

And if I start moving real smoothly, pressing acelerator nice & easy, the shudder does not appear. But if I step on it (as in WOT), the car shudders when moving off from rest - and in this case, the shudder is very evident.

I suspect this is a start clutch problem but wonder if anyone else encountered a similar symptom.

- Did anyone had a confirmed start clutch failure?

- If so, what was the solution

- How much did it cost you and how long did it take?

My car is unfortunately out of warranty (by a year plus, car is 4 years+ old) - so any repairs by Honda dealer will be almost inevitable, unless (not sure about this) this is a recall issue. In which case, do I just pay for workmanship & the parts are free?

While I'm almost sure this is a start clutch failure, I will try different things to "fix" or reduce the effects - such as resetting the ECU computer (via methods in the Jazz service manual).

I did think of replacing the clutch myself but after looking at the darn Jazz manual, it freaks me out - you even need a special tool to open the inside of the CVT mechanism to get to the start clutch, process is really too hard & risky.

I'm not a happy person at this time. :(

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im so confused ... wat are u on abt ??? :confused: :confused:

is it auto or manual .. its all over the place lol

on your next service just ask them to reset the start clutch.

replace ur transmission oil.. and reset start clutch

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Samo

im so confused ... wat are u on abt ??? :confused: :confused:

is it auto or manual .. its all over the place lol

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Hi Samo. Start clutch is only for automatic (CVT), manual tranny does not have this. You can still have manual clutch burnout & failure, but this is different from this shuddering start clutch failure, which I believe is unique to Honda CVT.

Well, I can try what you folks are suggesting: (1) replace CVT oil, though that was replaced only about 30K km ago, (2) reset CVT computer.

But worse case scenario: assuming back to Honda dealer for slaughter ($$), how much did anyone who may had a similar experience pay for?

Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lokets

Hi Samo. Start clutch is only for automatic (CVT), manual tranny does not have this. You can still have manual clutch burnout & failure, but this is different from this shuddering start clutch failure, which I believe is unique to Honda CVT.

Well, I can try what you folks are suggesting: (1) replace CVT oil, though that was replaced only about 30K km ago, (2) reset CVT computer.

But worse case scenario: assuming back to Honda dealer for slaughter ($$), how much did anyone who may had a similar experience pay for?

Thanks.

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oh cheers :thumbsup:

learn something new everyday

How many Kms has your CVT done and how many transmission oil
change has occurred?

Had a similar problem with my CRV auto at 165,000Km, identical to
the problem you described with your Jazz CVT. The pedal got mashed
to the floor occassionally by couple of family members.
I replaced the oil every 20,000km. I started to use non-Honda
oil(after 100,000Km, which was a folly). I had quotes for
repairs ranging A$2,500-4,000. I had to try a cheaper approach...

The clutch slip disappeared after I flushed the auto transmission
3 times with genuine Honda auto transmission oil at $40 each!
Still cheap compared to a transmission teardown. I did the same
to a friend's Hyundai which deferred the inevitable for 20,000km.
He had a 2nd hand auto supplied and fitted 2 months ago for $1100.

The slippage could be due to the crud buildup over 165,000km.
I don't know how long the transmission would have lasted if
I've kept the CRV. I sold it 2 years ago to buy a manual Jazz.
Easier to do a clutch replacement than on an auto/CVT.

Hopefully the teardown on your CVT could be postponed with a few
CVT oil changes and computer resets.

Good luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jazcivic

How many Kms has your CVT done and how many transmission oil change has occurred?

Had a similar problem with my CRV auto at 165,000Km, identical to
the problem you described with your Jazz CVT. The pedal got mashed
to the floor occassionally by couple of family members.
I replaced the oil every 20,000km. I started to use non-Honda :thumbdwn:
oil(after 100,000Km, which was a folly). I had quotes for
repairs ranging A$2,500-4,000. I had to try a cheaper approach...

The clutch slip disappeared after I flushed the auto transmission
3 times with genuine Honda auto transmission oil at $40 each!
Still cheap compared to a transmission teardown. I did the same
to a friend's Hyundai which deferred the inevitable for 20,000km.
He had a 2nd hand auto supplied and fitted 2 months ago for $1100.

The slippage could be due to the crud buildup over 165,000km.
I don't know how long the transmission would have lasted if
I've kept the CRV. I sold it 2 years ago to buy a manual Jazz.
Easier to do a clutch replacement than on an auto/CVT.

Hopefully the teardown on your CVT could be postponed with a few
CVT oil changes and computer resets.

Good luck.

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Thanks jazcivic for the suggestions/ideas. My CVT has done only one Honda genuine oil CVT change since new. The recommended change interval are at: 80K, 140K, 200K - that is every 60K km after the first change. The car has done close to 120K km now, so another scheduled CVT oil change is technically not due yet.

While your CRV fix appears to be fixed by tranny oil change, my CVT maybe different but nevertheless worth a try. I would need 4L of ATF-Z1 oil, total about $52. There's an alternative, a more expensive tranny oil specifically for CVT, that's $80 for 4L. I may go for the second one just to give it a try.

This start clutch issue appears to be unique to CVT and is different from your "normal" 4-speed auto as I believe your CRV does not have a start clutch - though an impending failure may give similar symptoms.

It is also interesting that this problem is less noticeable when the engine is cold and it becomes evident when engine is hot. Perhaps an oil-sensitive issue?!?

If it cost you $2.4K to $4K for regular auto tranny fix, I think my repair is going to cost a bomb (!!**!!). Anyway, shall go for the CVT reset & tranny oil change first, see how I go with that.

Thanks for your sympathy...

u can try to put an "oil transmision cooler" it might cool ur transmission OIL much faster and it will make it softer (less jerking)

Change the CVT fluid more frequently VS. new CVT transmission because the fluid wasn't changed more regularly. The Honda fluid is certainly not cheap but its a lot cheaper than a whole new transmissions. Service intervals are a guide not gospel.

I change the CVT fluid every 20K and will never ever have any problems just like the oil is changed every 5K but I come from a Honda motorcycle background and know just how important fluids are for Hondas. I enjoy optimum performance and zero problems on each and every Honda vehicle I've owned and will ever own in future.

Some cars have service intervals of 20K for each oil change. Those vehicles run better with more regular oil changes just like most vehicles do.

Reduced performance often also means decreased economy which could be costing you more than the cost of fluids. Reduced satisfaction due to reduced performance is a lot more costly to me than a few liters of essential fluids.

I finally got a 4L bottle of CVT-only fluid which is extra expensive $81 versus the regular $50 (but unsuitable) ATF-Z1 fluid. And putting it in and running for a while, the juddering seems to have disappeared amazingly. It was just oil, but then again it could be new CVT-only oil as I had the ATF-Z1 previously. Anyway, I shall drive around abit more before coming to a conclusion. Wish me the best.

Also, while draining the CVT fluid, I found this interesting fact: the stock transmission drain plug is actually magnetic (weakly so). And this is from a stock drain plug with no modification. See: http://www.ozhonda.com/gallery/showp...oto=6024&cat=2

My car is now doing the same thing. I just had 60K service done.

The CVT fluid is not due to be changed for another 20K, but should I change it earlier? How long can I wait (the next service ok?)? Is this serious, ie, if I don't change it real soon, is my transmission is going to die?

Should I go easy on the accelerator?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jazzdude

My car is now doing the same thing. I just had 60K service done.

The CVT fluid is not due to be changed for another 20K, but should I change it earlier? How long can I wait (the next service ok?)? Is this serious, ie, if I don't change it real soon, is my transmission is going to die?

Should I go easy on the accelerator?

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I suggest you change it now, don't wait. Your current oil could be the ATF-Z1 type, not the CVT-only fluid, the latter oil appears to be used for CVT oil change now. If the transmission gets damaged, it is big money to fix, and a lengthy time required.

I did try to go easy on the accelerator for a while but when moving off from rest on a slope, it is just impossible to avoid the shuddering effect. So, in the end I gave up being gentle on the accelerator and changed the oil.

The oil change seems to be still doing the transmission good thus far. I think this problem varies with individual CVT and mine happens at 135K km, but yours appear to be 60K.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lokets

I suggest you change it now, don't wait. Your current oil could be the ATF-Z1 type, not the CVT-only fluid, the latter oil appears to be used for CVT oil change now. If the transmission gets damaged, it is big money to fix, and a lengthy time required.

I did try to go easy on the accelerator for a while but when moving off from rest on a slope, it is just impossible to avoid the shuddering effect. So, in the end I gave up being gentle on the accelerator and changed the oil.

The oil change seems to be still doing the transmission good thus far. I think this problem varies with individual CVT and mine happens at 135K km, but yours appear to be 60K.

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Thanks mate, I am going to buy the CVT oil today (3L) and find someone cheap to put it in. It is going to cost me $14.80/L.

My car is now at 62000Kms, so when should I next change my CVT oil? 100K service?

Until I get it changed I am accelerating like a granny (so that there is no shuddering) LOL!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jazzdude

Thanks mate, I am going to buy the CVT oil today (3L) and find someone cheap to put it in. It is going to cost me $14.80/L.

My car is now at 62000Kms, so when should I next change my CVT oil? 100K service?

Until I get it changed I am accelerating like a granny (so that there is no shuddering) LOL!

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Beware that when you buy the oil, buy the CVT-only specific oil, don't get the conventional automatic Honda oil called ATF-Z1. As far as I know, the CVT-only oil comes in 4L pack only, but the ATF-Z1 comes in 1L or 4L form. The 1L ATF-Z1 is about $14.80/L as you said, hence you maybe buying the wrong type of oil. Just beware of that. The single 4L CVT-only oil cost $81/4L.

You can check the kind of oil you have right now by checking the color of the oil via the CVT dipstick. If the color is a slight red, it is the conventional ATF-Z1 (bad choice). If the color is almost clear (very slight yellow), then it is the newer CVT-only oil (good choice). The CVT-only oil feels almost entirely viscous, like water, but with an oily feel to it.

If the shuddering is giving you problem, change it NOW, regardless of service interval, don't wait until next 70K or 100K km. You can do it yourself as well.

Why suffer to drive like a granny when you can fix the problem right away? Have fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lokets

Beware that when you buy the oil, buy the CVT-only specific oil, don't get the conventional automatic Honda oil called ATF-Z1. As far as I know, the CVT-only oil comes in 4L pack only, but the ATF-Z1 comes in 1L or 4L form. The 1L ATF-Z1 is about $14.80/L as you said, hence you maybe buying the wrong type of oil. Just beware of that. The single 4L CVT-only oil cost $81/4L.

You can check the kind of oil you have right now by checking the color of the oil via the CVT dipstick. If the color is a slight red, it is the conventional ATF-Z1 (bad choice). If the color is almost clear (very slight yellow), then it is the newer CVT-only oil (good choice). The CVT-only oil feels almost entirely viscous, like water, but with an oily feel to it.

If the shuddering is giving you problem, change it NOW, regardless of service interval, don't wait until next 70K or 100K km. You can do it yourself as well.

Why suffer to drive like a granny when you can fix the problem right away? Have fun.

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I went to Honda today and they told me that they don't sell CVT specific oil to retail customers, that they only get it in big 200L drums (I am not really buying that).

They told me to come back next week and then they'll do a test drive etc. of my car for free, and see if it needs an oil change or if it's the start clutch. I have a feeling they are going to tell me it's the start clutch so that I'll need to get it fixed there.

I am pretty sure that the oil in my car at the moment is ATF Z1. Where can I get a hold of the CVT oil, because my local Honda won't sell it to me.

My problem is exactly the same as what you described. The 1/2 second noise is hard to explain, almost like a shudder/humming sound, but only if I accelerate from a dead stop. But if I accelerate very gently, then no noise. Apart from that everything in the car is great. The revs are good and so is the idling (sometimes I think the car has switched off when I stop at the signal lights because it is so quiet and there is no vibration etc.).

Also, did your car's general running noise reduce when you changed the CVT oil?

How hard is it to change the CVT oil myself. I don't have a ramp etc. to raise the car.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jazzdude

I went to Honda today and they told me that they don't sell CVT specific oil to retail customers, that they only get it in big 200L drums (I am not really buying that).

They told me to come back next week and then they'll do a test drive etc. of my car for free, and see if it needs an oil change or if it's the start clutch. I have a feeling they are going to tell me it's the start clutch so that I'll need to get it fixed there.

I am pretty sure that the oil in my car at the moment is ATF Z1. Where can I get a hold of the CVT oil, because my local Honda won't sell it to me.

My problem is exactly the same as what you described. The 1/2 second noise is hard to explain, almost like a shudder/humming sound, but only if I accelerate from a dead stop. But if I accelerate very gently, then no noise. Apart from that everything in the car is great. The revs are good and so is the idling (sometimes I think the car has switched off when I stop at the signal lights because it is so quiet and there is no vibration etc.).

Also, did your car's general running noise reduce when you changed the CVT oil?

How hard is it to change the CVT oil myself. I don't have a ramp etc. to raise the car.

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What a rip-off, Honda not willing to sell the oil. Try another dealership/spares department. I got my 4L CVT only oil at $81 in Springwood Honda, QLD. No questions asked. You are in Sydney, yes, why not ask the friendly folks here, I'm sure there are lots of Sydney CVT Jazz owners & some do buy their Honda oils for replacement, etc.

You can opt for the free test drive offered but if they don't want to sell you the oil, they would also want to charge you heaps for service fees - for potentially not a CVT start clutch failure. It would be to their interests to offer their opinion to you without you first trying to fix this on your own.

I did not notice any reduction in noise after changing to the CVT only fluid. As you said, the car itself is quite quiet. The most amount of noise comes from the air-con belt/drive. That overrides all other noise.

To change the oil, you unplug the drain plug on the right side of the car at the bottom. Then, put back the plug and pour the CVT fluid at the top - after removing dipstick (you will need a long tube to guide the fluid down as the hole is not easily reached). It can be done within 1 hour but dispose the fluid the responsible way. For the unplugging process, you do not need a car ramp, there should be just sufficient space under the car to do the job without the need to jack it up - well I did not.

BTW, out of curiosity, is your Jazz a 1.5 or 1.3? And is your Jazz a Thailand made Jazz? I'm just wondering the quality of transmission from Thailand Jazz now as mine is made in Japan and my Jazz's problem came up in 125K km (pretty long) and yours at only 60K km (too short).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lokets

What a rip-off, Honda not willing to sell the oil. Try another dealership/spares department. I got my 4L CVT only oil at $81 in Springwood Honda, QLD. No questions asked. You are in Sydney, yes, why not ask the friendly folks here, I'm sure there are lots of Sydney CVT Jazz owners & some do buy their Honda oils for replacement, etc.

You can opt for the free test drive offered but if they don't want to sell you the oil, they would also want to charge you heaps for service fees - for potentially not a CVT start clutch failure. It would be to their interests to offer their opinion to you without you first trying to fix this on your own.

I did not notice any reduction in noise after changing to the CVT only fluid. As you said, the car itself is quite quiet. The most amount of noise comes from the air-con belt/drive. That overrides all other noise.

To change the oil, you unplug the drain plug on the right side of the car at the bottom. Then, put back the plug and pour the CVT fluid at the top - after removing dipstick (you will need a long tube to guide the fluid down as the hole is not easily reached). It can be done within 1 hour but dispose the fluid the responsible way. For the unplugging process, you do not need a car ramp, there should be just sufficient space under the car to do the job without the need to jack it up - well I did not.

BTW, out of curiosity, is your Jazz a 1.5 or 1.3? And is your Jazz a Thailand made Jazz? I'm just wondering the quality of transmission from Thailand Jazz now as mine is made in Japan and my Jazz's problem came up in 125K km (pretty long) and yours at only 60K km (too short).

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I'll try getting the CVT oil through some other dealership, but I'll let them do the test drive first (it free after all).

I think the noise is mainly because of my tyres. I took out the Yoko's put on Pirelli Dragons. Much better grip, but a bit noisy.

Mine is a 1.3L Japanese made (built in 2002) Jazz. I bought it brand new and always serviced it regularly (log book service), always use only 100% synthetic engine oil and 98 RON petrol. I never really push the car too hard. I can't understand why this is happening. :(

there was a bulletin on these..
its coz the jazz cvt's.. are shit.
what happens is that after a while.. some jazz's create this shuddering (which can be avoided by regular oil changes, but even still, cvt's are crap.).. our initial solution was to replace the start clutch. and after about 10 million start clutches we did.. honda sends out a bulletin saying all it needs is a genuine honda cvt-f flush, it doesnt to be reset, unless youve changed ur battery or wateva. so what we do now with jazz'z that shudder is just replace the oil, take it for a drive, then replace it again.. and shudder gone, and if isnt, new start clutch kit.

you will find that most honda's just use honda atf. they only recently brought out the cvtf, and we only get it in 60L drums.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baopham

there was a bulletin on these..
its coz the jazz cvt's.. are shit.
what happens is that after a while.. some jazz's create this shuddering (which can be avoided by regular oil changes, but even still, cvt's are crap.).. our initial solution was to replace the start clutch. and after about 10 million start clutches we did.. honda sends out a bulletin saying all it needs is a genuine honda cvt-f flush, it doesnt to be reset, unless youve changed ur battery or wateva. so what we do now with jazz'z that shudder is just replace the oil, take it for a drive, then replace it again.. and shudder gone, and if isnt, new start clutch kit.

you will find that most honda's just use honda atf. they only recently brought out the cvtf, and we only get it in 60L drums.

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Do you meant: the Honda workshop procedure is:

1. Replace CVT oil with new CVT-only oil
2. Drive around, if no shudder, good.
3. If shudder, drain the oil again and refill with another round of fresh CVT-only oil.
4. Drive around, if no shudder, good.
5. If shudder, do the start clutch replacement.

So, if the shudder comes back on my CVT, I do twice the fluid replacement (worse-case)? How do you drain the fluid totally? The replacement procedure does not (nor I think it can) remove the entire volume of 4L+ of oil - the change volume is about 3.6L. Short of holding the car & tilting on its side vertically.

And, according to your experience, how much does it cost to get the start kit replaced?

Presumably, even after replacing the start kit, this problem can come back, and if so, just repeat the above... what a "solution", sigh... :thumbdwn:

The new Honda CVTF fluid certainly in many cases when proper procedure in flushing and recalibrating start clutch does in 90% of cases rectify judder issues. If it doesnt rectify it its approx $1300 to get it rectified.

i have to some problem with my 2003 VTi-S only done 40k kms so that i created a tread "When does u guy change the CVT transmission oil"
after CVT oil changed the shudder event disappear
so change the oil asap

i had the same problem on my ek civic, its 99 model and only had 66,000kms.
i gave the car to yarra honda and they quoted me $5000 for the rebuild including labor. i got worried n shit....i found a few honda speiclists in thomastown who only rebuilds honda transmission and quoted 2.5k for it.

anyways...i did not have money to repair the transmission and had to sell the car straight away..

i heard a lot of horror things about the CVT transmission , apparently this is the worst transmission honda evet introduced...your not supposed to hammer your car at the lights otherwise u will destroy it...

OK, it's been about 3 weeks+ now since my first complaint about the juddering of the CVT on start-up and since replacing with the premium CVT-specific transmission oil, the problem has not since re-surface. I did not do a CVT ECU reset though.

My only conclusion from this: changing the CVT oil apparently does help in a big way, and change it as soon as you notice the symptoms I described.

Also change the CVT oil at a more regular interval than what's suggested in the service manual (I think the recommended distance is 60K km but that maybe too long - you decide what's best for your self).

there a new honda flushong procedure and new cvtf fluid it will solve all your problems

i cbf reading all the posts but the faulty start clutches are VERY common on jazz (and older civics and hrv with CVT)

take it back to your dealer, the steps they will most likely take are:

- flush with ATF
- if happens again they'll flush with the 'new' CVT fluid
- if happens again they'll most likely replace the starter clutch

it's a known issue, if you dealer says otherwise they are lying :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by osman

i had the same problem on my ek civic, its 99 model and only had 66,000kms.
i gave the car to yarra honda and they quoted me $5000 for the rebuild including labor. i got worried n shit....i found a few honda speiclists in thomastown who only rebuilds honda transmission and quoted 2.5k for it.

anyways...i did not have money to repair the transmission and had to sell the car straight away..

i heard a lot of horror things about the CVT transmission , apparently this is the worst transmission honda evet introduced...your not supposed to hammer your car at the lights otherwise u will destroy it...

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i didn't say this but honda australia are still replacing EK civic and HRV trans/starter clutches at no charge in certain cases:zip:

if anyone has a honda cvt issue take it to their dealer for rectification. if you are unhappy with the results from your dealer take it up with them or take it to another dealer for a second opinion

Quote:

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Originally Posted by panda[cRx]

i cbf reading all the posts but the faulty start clutches are VERY common on jazz (and older civics and hrv with CVT)

take it back to your dealer, the steps they will most likely take are:

- flush with ATF
- if happens again they'll flush with the 'new' CVT fluid
- if happens again they'll most likely replace the starter clutch

it's a known issue, if you dealer says otherwise they are lying :)

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panda ma men... http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showpos...2&postcount=19

:wave: not being a dick , cos ur a honda guys id just like to know :thumbsup:

u have pm