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I'm getting some lowered kings springs put in this weekend, (already put a deposit down), but am now thinking that i should get shocks for better comfort.. Everyone is saying for the price of shocks and springs, its better to save up and get coilover's instead. Are coilover that much better then shocks and springs combo? or should i just stick with getting shocks? Have a honda civic sedan 99 model and its used for everyday driving..
It depends ...
For myself, on the street I use Koni yellow's with ITR springs.
Very comfortable - Didn't bother with coilovers as I didn't want the fuss
of needing to check and tightening the perches every now and then.
On the track, thats a different story
I will be using Toda Fightex very shortly. :-D
You don't really need "coilovers" for every day driving, a spring/shock combo will be fine. I've got Koni yellows too, I'd recommend them for daily driving.
I use ITR shocks and springs, great ride for the street. Bit soft for smooth tracks.
ive got kings springs with koni yellows. on the hardest setting its stiff.
Hardest setting on the Konis? Man, how do you even steer?Quote:
Originally Posted by d15z1SUX
koni adj. shocks /itr springs are perfect for street/ light track work.
What is the price range on the shocks you guys have? Yeah won't be doing any track driving. By the way what are ITR shocks? never heard of them.
its not that bad...Quote:
Originally Posted by e240
my old setup...:thumbsup: good for 1:16.3 at wakie on yoko street tyres and std b16aQuote:
Originally Posted by fatboyz39
ive got some ITR springs sitting here doing nothing if you want to buy,make an offer
I ahve koni yellows on my slow accord. On the hardest setting, i blew both my headlight bulbs - they were 2 mth old $90 polarg B1s as well.
and everytime i went over a speed hump, it seemed as if my spine would compress. i now have it on the softest.
I would prefer coilovers - I've gone through 3 sets of springs trying to get teh right height. its still not right, but close enough. I cannot justify spending anymore $$ on suspension. If only I had gotten coils from day one.
You aren't doing yourself any favours in handling with soft springs and the stiffest setting on the konis.
thanks but i'm already getting kings put in tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilli
ITR = integra type rQuote:
Originally Posted by lil4civ
Thanks for everyones help. i didn't end up installing the springs yesterday. They are welling to get me the shocks as well for cheaper. $600 for KYB shocks + $350 for the king springs and installation as they already ordered the springs in for me last time. So i'll be getting the lot installed in next week.
Well let you know how it goes.
SiReal said:"I ahve koni yellows on my slow accord. On the hardest setting, i blew both my headlight bulbs - they were 2 mth old $90 polarg B1s as well.
and everytime i went over a speed hump, it seemed as if my spine would compress. i now have it on the softest."
String said: "You aren't doing yourself any favours in handling with soft springs and the stiffest setting on the konis."
I have Koni 'Sports' on my Cb7 Accord using the stock springs. After a lot of experimenting I've ended up with Konis set at nearly full stiff front and rear. I find this setting gives better steering response (than softer settings) though may or may not be ideal for max grip in corners on a race track, but having said that I don't find grip lacking even on less than smooth roads, and even considering my cheapo tyres on standard rims. On the street I'd trade some outright grip for sharper steering response (helps avoid the potholes around here!).
I have front and rear strut bars too, and this may also affect what damper settings will work with a given spring on a given chassis, i/e. a less stiff chassis may not like the instantanous loadings imposed by stiff shock settings. Are strut bars good? I think they are essential with stiffer shocks (and springs too probably) to get the most out of the shocks. I can definitely feel the difference with / without strut bars, mostly this is 'feeling' thing but also has an affect on steering response and definitely substantially reduces scuttle shake on corrugated roads!
With stiff Koni damper settings the ride is on the harsher side on less than smooth roads, especially with the tyre pressures I'm running (38 front / 45 rear, arrived at with a lot of trial and error, very high on the rear due to excessively soft sidewalls on the crappy Falken ze329s fitted to rear). I don't mind this as a compromise for having a more stable / responsive platform, but I don't find it bone jarring or "neck compressing" (my wife hasn't complained yet!).
In the process of setting up these shocks I rang Proven Products (Koni importer) for advise. The bloke there told me not to run the Konis at FULL stiff because at this setting the valve(s) can / may close off making the shock almost rigid. He reccomended (for a stiff setting) to adjust to full stiff then back off a small amount. It may be your Konis are "neck compressing" at FULL stiff because of this??
I find the Konis are just too soft toward the softer end of settings. When adjusting Konis keep in mind that the adjustment is not very linear, e.g. say, a quarter turn from full soft will have much less affect on stiffness than a quarter turn from full stiff, i.e. as you approach full stiff the affect per degree of adjustment rotation seems to increase dramatically. For purposes of example, if we were to pick arbitrary numbers (from 0 to 100) to represent stiffness then zero turns would represent 0 (full soft), one full turn from soft may represent '30' stiffness, but the remaining 3/4 turn may represent the remaining '70'. Does this make sense?
Tip: Even when in good nick (and they may not be!) the stock upper rubber shock mounts (front and rear) are very soft and allow a significant amount of undamped motion in the unsprung and sprung masses that you can feel as a sort of suspension 'juddering' or as the body 'bouncing' after hitting a bump or sharp undulation. This 'juddering' or 'bouncing' is unreponsive to increasing shock stiffness (may even seem to get worse or at least more noticeable as shock stiffness is increased). This isn't just a problem for 'juddering' etc, but will also be significantly affecting things such as steering response and transient weight transfer...
Open your bonnet, while looking at the top of the shock push up and down on the fender. If you can see the shock shaft moving relative to strut tower then you have a problem here, and the rear shock rubbers are softer than the front ones (thicker, therefore more rubber, therefore softer).
I'd suggest replacing the rubber shock mounts with stiffer poly items, or (as I've done) compressing the rubber bushes using large washers (under the stock washers, and about the same OD as the stock washers) that have an ID slightly larger than than the crush tube. When tightened down this compresses the rubber mounts and stiffens them up considerably. I've compressed the stock rubber mounts by about 5mm(i.e. 5mm thick 'compressing' washers), which makes a very noticeable difference to this problem. When tightening the shock mount on the shaft, make sure that the 'compressing' washer(s) is concentric with the crush tube or the washer will get caught between the crush tube and the standard washer.
You may even find that harshness seems less with stiffer / stiffened shock mount rubbers. I think this may be because the uncotrolled (i.e. undamped) motion allowed by the soft mounts introduces a kind of 'secondary' harshness ('judder') that becomes more apparent as shock stiffness is increased.
PS. FWIW, from what I can gather all the real shock / damper experts consider there to be only three shock manufacturers at the top of the tree, and these are Koni, Bilstein, and Penske (in no particular order, though Penske may be the pinnacle). All the rest are second rate in comparison...
Keep in mind that a top quality damper such as Koni or Bilstein will last a lot longer than nearly any other brand, and that when they do wear out that they can be fully rebuilt. They can also be revalved if you wnat / need to change their characteristics. If my Konis ever need rebuilding then I think I'll get them revalved with slightly stiffer bump, but then the Konis will most likely outlast the rest of the old Accord!
Got my Konis for $850 through AutoOne, list price about $950. Worth it!
oh, btw, I also have the Konis coupled with H&R Sport springs, which are said to be around 25% stiffer than OEM.
i have owned both and...
go the coilovers not that much dearer than what a aftermarket shock and spring combo will cost !
better options like ride height and damper adjustability
Of course all Hondas with double wishbone suspensions use 'coilovers', its the standard set up. What many people seem to think of as a 'coilover' is simply the inclusion of an infinitely adjustable spring seat (not a bad thing), but this is just a coilover with an adjustable seat, its not in principle different to the standard set up other than this. Any spring and damper unit that can be removed from the car as a unit is a coilover, but enough pedantry!Quote:
Originally Posted by 90LAN
To keep it simple I'll commit the same sin and use the false differentiation. At the risk of stating the obvious, a 'coilover' is only as good as the damper and spring that comprises it. 'Coilovers' at the cheaper end of what's available are very unlikely to be a better choice than a top quality damper and a good / well chosen spring combination. Keep in mind that company X may well make a very good (and expensive) product that works well for racing etc, but this doesn't necessarily mean that their possibly similar looking / cheaper off the shelf 'performance' product is designed / built to the same standard, or even close...
You say 'coilovers' give "better options"... well maybe. Adjustability is nice in theory, but there is adjustable and then there is adjustable. Expert opinion is that the best adjustment is provided by substitution / modification of valves within the damper, i.e. any externally adjustable valve is less 'perfect' than a good non-adjustable valve. All externally adjustable valves are a compromise in some respect and the cheaper ones can perform very poorly. Koni uses very high quality adjustable valves, but this is also why Bilstein doesn't offer external adjustment at all...
Rebound is the most imoprtant adjustment, and for a road car all that's probably needed if the damper is good quality. If needed Konis are available with bump as well as rebound (more $), but it's also possible to have bump adjusters retrofitted if you really want it.
Some 'coilovers' have a lot of of 'clicks' (i.e. adjustment settings, I've heard of up to about 30 'clicks' on some units...!), but this doesn't necessarily mean they have a lot of adjustment range from min to max stiffness. They may do, but they may not, and the cheaper the less is likely to be the case. Some have in fact very little range relative to others, despite a lot of 'clicks'.
If the 'coilover' (or seperate damper for that matter) has seperate adjustment for both bump and rebound (nice in theory), don't assume that these adjustments are truly independant of each other. Many adjustable dampers (or 'coilovers') with bump AND rebound adjustment can exhibit high levels of what is called 'crosstalk', meaning that an adjustment to say bump can also have an unpredictable / unwanted / confusing affect on rebound and vice versa. This problem can also exist with top quality dampers, but to a much more limited degree.
Adjusters cost money to make. The more adjustments there are the more cost. If you see a damper or 'coilover' with lots of adjustments but still at a relatively low price (i.e. competitive $ with quality units with fewer adjustments) then its a good bet that corners have been cut elsewhere in the quality of the unit. This may or may not be a problem when you install them (probably will be, you might just not know because you have no good benchmark...), but may well be after say 20,000km...
I'd be suspicious of any 'coilover' you might buy for similar or nearish $ as a good damper and spring combination bought seperately. Less high quality adjustable 'coilovers' (or seperate dampers) can also suffer from other problems such as substantial fade, inconsistancy from unit to unit, unpredictable affects of adjustment changes (e.g. sometimes 'stiffer' can actually be softer in some parts of adjustment range), premature wear etc...
I don't mean to imply that 'coilovers' are bad per se, but brand and correct selection for application is important, as is cost (i.e. a cheaper unit is almost definitely inferior, which doesn't necessarily mean that a more expensive unit is much better, though it may be!). If you buy cheap then you will get what you pay for, but if you buy expensive you might... or might not!
You can't really go wrong with brand name dampers that are well accepted as top quality such as Koni or Bilstein (or Penske at great $$, or I hear good things about Ohlins, but I think might also be quite $$, and both are not readily available off shelf and may not even available at all for our cars?) so long as you choose the right ones for the job you want them to do, adjust them appropriately and pair them with the right springs (Konis work very well with quite soft and quite stiff springs).
So you don't have an infinitely adjustable spring perch with Konis etc, but this ain't the end of the world. Konis (and Bilstein?) do have several finite ride height options in spring perch location using grooves machined in the damper body (three on mine). If you want more options then its quite possible to have additional grooves machined by any competant machinest for a reasonable cost. I think Koni might have a shorter body damper more suitable for cars that are lowered a lot.
I can't find the URL, but there is a website out there written by a bloke who builds dampers proffessionally for autocross cars who claims to have had hundreds of dampers and 'coilovers' on his shock dyno. He is scathing of most damper and 'coilover' brands (especially most coming out of Japan), describing nearly all brands that he has tested other than Koni, Bilstein and Penske as "crap"...FWIW. Note that he isn't uncritical of Koni, Bilstein or Penske, just a lot less critical!
Come on, everyone knows what 'coilover' really means, and everyone knows what someone means when they say 'coilover'. The argument is the definition of a moot point so leave it be.
My apologies for stating the 'bleedin obvious'!Quote:
Originally Posted by string
Further to this: it is possible to change the ride height with Konis without having to take the spring / damper off the car. You can compress the spring in situ with a spring compressor to unload the spring seat, then prise the clip out and relocate it in another groove (not dead easy but not all that hard).Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnL
I thought some of koni yellows (like for eg/ek) are height adjustable as well by changing the position of the perch
Thats what I'm saying, but the range of adjustment isn't all that great with the standard perch (lower spring seat) height options. The perch is located by a clip that fits into your choice of a number of circumferential grooves (three is typical, but some 'Yellows' have more I understand), and the number of grooves can be easily increased by machining extra ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by akusuma
I would be cautious just how low you drop though, the standard Konis aren't designed for 'slamming'! For that you need a damper with a shorter body length, or very stiff springs to prevent bottoming out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by string
LOL I was going to make this point earlier but though better of it, even though there are many people who do not realise the standard suspension is very often a "coilover" setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnL
It's just an extra piece of information that people may be interested to know about :)
I have standard springs which are of course very soft. If I had the spare cash I’d like to up the rate with new springs about 30% stiffer, which considering the OE softness probably still wouldn’t be all that stiff, but it’s not a racing car! I want to retain standard height (too many bumps around here!), but most easily available and reasonably priced off the shelf up-rated springs seem to be lowering springs in varying degrees of drop. Kmac can do custom spring rates to any ride height for a not unreasonable price, so I might go that way when (if!) finances improve.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiReal
As to setting the Koni Sports (yellow) damper stiffness, the stiffer I’ve made them the better I’ve liked it (despite some harshness on some road surfaces), but, I do suspect that what I’m doing here is using the damper setting to make up for insufficient spring stiffness (as some racers do if their class mandates standard springs but leaves damper rate free). Less than ideal I think, but the best I can do at present. I wouldn’t be surprised if, with stiffer springs, I couldn’t back the Konis off somewhat without losing steering response or chassis / suspension control, we’ll see.
I do find (feel) the Konis not stiff enough in the non adjustable bump rate (particularly in the front), though this may again be a function of the low spring rate. I gather that as spring rate is increased that its not uncommon to find that damper bump rate can be decreased (from that required with softer springs for good handling), because the stiffer spring works to increase the rate (speed and degree) with which weight transfer occurs (which I’m currently ‘overusing’ the dampers to achieve). The standard Koni bump rate may be fine with stiffer springs?
Also, a stiffer spring will add resistance to wheel hop after hitting a bump (i.e. further unloading of the contact patch beyond what is directly caused by a bump because of the inertia of the unsprung mass, i.e. inadequately resisted unsprung mass inertia that makes a wheel actually leave the road surface in severe cases), so this might also suggest a softer damper bump stiffness (hopefully the standard Koni bump valving will be near the mark, because I can’t see myself getting them re-valved just to increase bump rate!).
The Konis do assist in limiting body roll, but this is only during swerve type manoeuvres, i.e. the stiff rebound rate slows the body roll to a degree that means if you turn say right then quickly straighten or turn left there is no time for substantial body roll to occur and steering response is good. In long corners (such as roundabouts or similar) where the car spends a long time in a steady state condition the body roll is still excessive and steering response is much worse with building understeer through the turn. Of course damper settings aren’t going to address this, I at least need a thicker rear ARB!
To pinch pennies, I’m considering clamping an additional standard ARB (if I can find one for real cheap!) to the existing one which will of course double rear ARB stiffness (though won’t double total rear anti roll stiffness because the contributions to roll stiffness of the springs and roll centre height will be unaffected). Even doubling the rear ARB stiffness in this way won’t be as much as changing from a standard rear ARB (14mm) to an aftermarket 19mm (Whiteline or Kmac), because the 19mm bars are 2.7 times as stiff as standard (in theory, assuming identical bar shape to standard).
Talking ARBs on Accords (at least CB7 and probably any with the front and rear double wishbone suspension, but maybe others, possibly Civics, Preludes etc too(?)), where the rear ARB linkage attaches to the suspension arm is dodgy (soft and flexible), but can easily be improved. If you have a look at this you’ll see that the linkage attaches to the suspension arm with a short bar that is threaded at each end, essentially a short stud that is thicker in the middle with (at one end) a thinner section that is threaded and fits into the arm, retained with a nut, and at the other end thinner to pass through the linkage bush and threaded on the end to retain the bush / link with another nut.
Problem here is that this attachment ‘stud’ is only supported at the end that is attached to the arm and not supported at the end where the ARB link attaches. This effectively creates a ‘lever arm’ that allows / causes the link end of the ‘stud’ to move up and down as ‘roll force’ is fed into and from the ARB, substantially affecting the total stiffness of the ARB ‘system’.
Its not the stud flexing appreciably, it’s that the plate steel from which the arm is made flexes where the ‘stud’ attaches because the stud ‘levers’ the force from the ARB to the arm. The affect of this unwanted flexure is somewhat similar to having a very soft squashy rubber bush in the ARB linkage, but we can make it more like a hard poly bush!
If you take the suspension arm out of the car (not that hard and relatively quick to do) you can weld a reinforcing ‘strut’ from the lower edge of the arm up to where the ARB link attaches to the stud. This strut must be removable (because of rubber brake line routing) so rather than welding the strut directly to the arm, a steel tab (1/8” or 3mm thick) with an 8mm hole needs to be welded to the bottom of the suspension arm (where the ‘flange’ on the edge of the arm bulges out toward the middle of the car) in such a way that the tab points upward toward the end of the ‘stud’ where the link attaches. The strut can be now bolted to this tab.
Now a short strut needs to be made, I used a short piece of tube flattened at both ends (though you could even use angle iron) and an 8mm hole drilled in each flattened section, one hole allows the strut to be bolted to the new tab and the other allows the stud to pass through the strut.
The strut must attach to the ‘stud’ on the inside of the ARB link bush, sandwiched between the link bush and the shoulder of the stud, i.e. the 8mm section of the stud passes through the 8mm hole in the flattened end of the strut tube and the link then placed in position then the flat washer then the nut. Discard the inner flat washer, the side of the flattened section of the new strut will serve the same purpose as this washer (i.e. to locate the rubber bush laterally). Paint all black and refit and you’re done. Do the other side.
Pay attention to clearance of the new strut to the ARB link, this will dictate exactly where things can be welded on etc. I had a slight clearance problem on one side, fixed by grinding a small section of the link itself. Ensure that when you flatten the tube end that it isn’t flattened equally into the centreline of the tube (as you would get if you squashed the tube end in a vice), but flattened in an offset manner.
To flatten tube ends 'offset': Lay the tube on a flat steel plate and hammer the end flat so that one side of the ‘flat’ is level with the side of the tube. If you don’t flatten the tube end offset like this then you’ll have link clearance issues. Note that it doesn’t have to be a hugely strong installation, the forces involved with the ARB aren’t all that high. Don’t use thick walled tube, 1.6mm wall will be fine, and easier to work with.
This mod made a noticeable improvement to rear roll stiffness on my car, lessening roll and understeer, and a slight improvement in steering response. I’ve also fitted poly ‘D’ bushes to the rear ARB for another slight improvement. The stiffer your ARB the more the standard link arrangement will flex, losing roll stiffness especially in the early stages of roll when the suspension arm will probably start flexing appreciably before the ARB does!
Another place to find excessive flex are the two brackets to which the ARB ‘D’ bushes attach. I’ve taken these out and welded in various reinforcements on them (with noticeable improvement to rear roll stiffness etc), but I couldn’t be bothered explaining exactly how, I’m sure you can figure it out for yourself!