Shocks or Coilovers?

[string]

You aren't doing yourself any favours in handling with soft springs and the stiffest setting on the konis.

[lil4civ]

ive got some ITR springs sitting here doing nothing if you want to buy,make an offer

thanks but i'm already getting kings put in tomorrow.

[dns]

What is the price range on the shocks you guys have? Yeah won't be doing any track driving. By the way what are ITR shocks? never heard of them.

ITR = integra type r

[lil4civ]

Thanks for everyones help. i didn't end up installing the springs yesterday. They are welling to get me the shocks as well for cheaper. $600 for KYB shocks + $350 for the king springs and installation as they already ordered the springs in for me last time. So i'll be getting the lot installed in next week.
Well let you know how it goes.

[JohnL]

SiReal said:"I ahve koni yellows on my slow accord. On the hardest setting, i blew both my headlight bulbs - they were 2 mth old $90 polarg B1s as well.
and everytime i went over a speed hump, it seemed as if my spine would compress. i now have it on the softest."

String said: "You aren't doing yourself any favours in handling with soft springs and the stiffest setting on the konis."

I have Koni 'Sports' on my Cb7 Accord using the stock springs. After a lot of experimenting I've ended up with Konis set at nearly full stiff front and rear. I find this setting gives better steering response (than softer settings) though may or may not be ideal for max grip in corners on a race track, but having said that I don't find grip lacking even on less than smooth roads, and even considering my cheapo tyres on standard rims. On the street I'd trade some outright grip for sharper steering response (helps avoid the potholes around here!).

I have front and rear strut bars too, and this may also affect what damper settings will work with a given spring on a given chassis, i/e. a less stiff chassis may not like the instantanous loadings imposed by stiff shock settings. Are strut bars good? I think they are essential with stiffer shocks (and springs too probably) to get the most out of the shocks. I can definitely feel the difference with / without strut bars, mostly this is 'feeling' thing but also has an affect on steering response and definitely substantially reduces scuttle shake on corrugated roads!

With stiff Koni damper settings the ride is on the harsher side on less than smooth roads, especially with the tyre pressures I'm running (38 front / 45 rear, arrived at with a lot of trial and error, very high on the rear due to excessively soft sidewalls on the crappy Falken ze329s fitted to rear). I don't mind this as a compromise for having a more stable / responsive platform, but I don't find it bone jarring or "neck compressing" (my wife hasn't complained yet!).

In the process of setting up these shocks I rang Proven Products (Koni importer) for advise. The bloke there told me not to run the Konis at FULL stiff because at this setting the valve(s) can / may close off making the shock almost rigid. He reccomended (for a stiff setting) to adjust to full stiff then back off a small amount. It may be your Konis are "neck compressing" at FULL stiff because of this??

I find the Konis are just too soft toward the softer end of settings. When adjusting Konis keep in mind that the adjustment is not very linear, e.g. say, a quarter turn from full soft will have much less affect on stiffness than a quarter turn from full stiff, i.e. as you approach full stiff the affect per degree of adjustment rotation seems to increase dramatically. For purposes of example, if we were to pick arbitrary numbers (from 0 to 100) to represent stiffness then zero turns would represent 0 (full soft), one full turn from soft may represent '30' stiffness, but the remaining 3/4 turn may represent the remaining '70'. Does this make sense?

Tip: Even when in good nick (and they may not be!) the stock upper rubber shock mounts (front and rear) are very soft and allow a significant amount of undamped motion in the unsprung and sprung masses that you can feel as a sort of suspension 'juddering' or as the body 'bouncing' after hitting a bump or sharp undulation. This 'juddering' or 'bouncing' is unreponsive to increasing shock stiffness (may even seem to get worse or at least more noticeable as shock stiffness is increased). This isn't just a problem for 'juddering' etc, but will also be significantly affecting things such as steering response and transient weight transfer...

Open your bonnet, while looking at the top of the shock push up and down on the fender. If you can see the shock shaft moving relative to strut tower then you have a problem here, and the rear shock rubbers are softer than the front ones (thicker, therefore more rubber, therefore softer).

I'd suggest replacing the rubber shock mounts with stiffer poly items, or (as I've done) compressing the rubber bushes using large washers (under the stock washers, and about the same OD as the stock washers) that have an ID slightly larger than than the crush tube. When tightened down this compresses the rubber mounts and stiffens them up considerably. I've compressed the stock rubber mounts by about 5mm(i.e. 5mm thick 'compressing' washers), which makes a very noticeable difference to this problem. When tightening the shock mount on the shaft, make sure that the 'compressing' washer(s) is concentric with the crush tube or the washer will get caught between the crush tube and the standard washer.

You may even find that harshness seems less with stiffer / stiffened shock mount rubbers. I think this may be because the uncotrolled (i.e. undamped) motion allowed by the soft mounts introduces a kind of 'secondary' harshness ('judder') that becomes more apparent as shock stiffness is increased.

PS. FWIW, from what I can gather all the real shock / damper experts consider there to be only three shock manufacturers at the top of the tree, and these are Koni, Bilstein, and Penske (in no particular order, though Penske may be the pinnacle). All the rest are second rate in comparison...

[JohnL]

Keep in mind that a top quality damper such as Koni or Bilstein will last a lot longer than nearly any other brand, and that when they do wear out that they can be fully rebuilt. They can also be revalved if you wnat / need to change their characteristics. If my Konis ever need rebuilding then I think I'll get them revalved with slightly stiffer bump, but then the Konis will most likely outlast the rest of the old Accord!

Got my Konis for $850 through AutoOne, list price about $950. Worth it!

[SiReal]

oh, btw, I also have the Konis coupled with H&R Sport springs, which are said to be around 25% stiffer than OEM.

[90LAN]

i have owned both and...
go the coilovers not that much dearer than what a aftermarket shock and spring combo will cost !
better options like ride height and damper adjustability

[JohnL]

i have owned both and...
go the coilovers not that much dearer than what a aftermarket shock and spring combo will cost !
better options like ride height and damper adjustability

Of course all Hondas with double wishbone suspensions use 'coilovers', its the standard set up. What many people seem to think of as a 'coilover' is simply the inclusion of an infinitely adjustable spring seat (not a bad thing), but this is just a coilover with an adjustable seat, its not in principle different to the standard set up other than this. Any spring and damper unit that can be removed from the car as a unit is a coilover, but enough pedantry!

To keep it simple I'll commit the same sin and use the false differentiation. At the risk of stating the obvious, a 'coilover' is only as good as the damper and spring that comprises it. 'Coilovers' at the cheaper end of what's available are very unlikely to be a better choice than a top quality damper and a good / well chosen spring combination. Keep in mind that company X may well make a very good (and expensive) product that works well for racing etc, but this doesn't necessarily mean that their possibly similar looking / cheaper off the shelf 'performance' product is designed / built to the same standard, or even close...

You say 'coilovers' give "better options"... well maybe. Adjustability is nice in theory, but there is adjustable and then there is adjustable. Expert opinion is that the best adjustment is provided by substitution / modification of valves within the damper, i.e. any externally adjustable valve is less 'perfect' than a good non-adjustable valve. All externally adjustable valves are a compromise in some respect and the cheaper ones can perform very poorly. Koni uses very high quality adjustable valves, but this is also why Bilstein doesn't offer external adjustment at all...

Rebound is the most imoprtant adjustment, and for a road car all that's probably needed if the damper is good quality. If needed Konis are available with bump as well as rebound (more $), but it's also possible to have bump adjusters retrofitted if you really want it.

Some 'coilovers' have a lot of of 'clicks' (i.e. adjustment settings, I've heard of up to about 30 'clicks' on some units...!), but this doesn't necessarily mean they have a lot of adjustment range from min to max stiffness. They may do, but they may not, and the cheaper the less is likely to be the case. Some have in fact very little range relative to others, despite a lot of 'clicks'.

If the 'coilover' (or seperate damper for that matter) has seperate adjustment for both bump and rebound (nice in theory), don't assume that these adjustments are truly independant of each other. Many adjustable dampers (or 'coilovers') with bump AND rebound adjustment can exhibit high levels of what is called 'crosstalk', meaning that an adjustment to say bump can also have an unpredictable / unwanted / confusing affect on rebound and vice versa. This problem can also exist with top quality dampers, but to a much more limited degree.

Adjusters cost money to make. The more adjustments there are the more cost. If you see a damper or 'coilover' with lots of adjustments but still at a relatively low price (i.e. competitive $ with quality units with fewer adjustments) then its a good bet that corners have been cut elsewhere in the quality of the unit. This may or may not be a problem when you install them (probably will be, you might just not know because you have no good benchmark...), but may well be after say 20,000km...

I'd be suspicious of any 'coilover' you might buy for similar or nearish $ as a good damper and spring combination bought seperately. Less high quality adjustable 'coilovers' (or seperate dampers) can also suffer from other problems such as substantial fade, inconsistancy from unit to unit, unpredictable affects of adjustment changes (e.g. sometimes 'stiffer' can actually be softer in some parts of adjustment range), premature wear etc...

I don't mean to imply that 'coilovers' are bad per se, but brand and correct selection for application is important, as is cost (i.e. a cheaper unit is almost definitely inferior, which doesn't necessarily mean that a more expensive unit is much better, though it may be!). If you buy cheap then you will get what you pay for, but if you buy expensive you might... or might not!

You can't really go wrong with brand name dampers that are well accepted as top quality such as Koni or Bilstein (or Penske at great $$, or I hear good things about Ohlins, but I think might also be quite $$, and both are not readily available off shelf and may not even available at all for our cars?) so long as you choose the right ones for the job you want them to do, adjust them appropriately and pair them with the right springs (Konis work very well with quite soft and quite stiff springs).

So you don't have an infinitely adjustable spring perch with Konis etc, but this ain't the end of the world. Konis (and Bilstein?) do have several finite ride height options in spring perch location using grooves machined in the damper body (three on mine). If you want more options then its quite possible to have additional grooves machined by any competant machinest for a reasonable cost. I think Koni might have a shorter body damper more suitable for cars that are lowered a lot.

I can't find the URL, but there is a website out there written by a bloke who builds dampers proffessionally for autocross cars who claims to have had hundreds of dampers and 'coilovers' on his shock dyno. He is scathing of most damper and 'coilover' brands (especially most coming out of Japan), describing nearly all brands that he has tested other than Koni, Bilstein and Penske as "crap"...FWIW. Note that he isn't uncritical of Koni, Bilstein or Penske, just a lot less critical!

[string]

Come on, everyone knows what 'coilover' really means, and everyone knows what someone means when they say 'coilover'. The argument is the definition of a moot point so leave it be.

[JohnL]

Come on, everyone knows what 'coilover' really means, and everyone knows what someone means when they say 'coilover'. The argument is the definition of a moot point so leave it be.

My apologies for stating the 'bleedin obvious'!

[JohnL]

So you don't have an infinitely adjustable spring perch with Konis etc, but this ain't the end of the world. Konis (and Bilstein?) do have several finite ride height options in spring perch location using grooves machined in the damper body (three on mine). If you want more options then its quite possible to have additional grooves machined by any competant machinest for a reasonable cost. I think Koni might have a shorter body damper more suitable for cars that are lowered a lot.

Further to this: it is possible to change the ride height with Konis without having to take the spring / damper off the car. You can compress the spring in situ with a spring compressor to unload the spring seat, then prise the clip out and relocate it in another groove (not dead easy but not all that hard).