Handling Woes...

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25-05-2008, 07:49 PM
squish85

Handling Woes...

Hi all, I've always noticed that my steering will feel very light if at high speeds.. especially when I floor it up to vtec to ard 100- 120.. The steering lightness is even more evident at 140km/hr++ ..

I have ruled out the following:
1) Camber/alignment - Nope. Tyre Shop checked it out with their machine, which showed an OK.

2) Power steering - Nope. Took out the belt and drove ard without power steering..the steering still reacted the same way..

3)Tyres- Maybe.. Maxis tyres with abt 50% thread left..

So.. is it just me ? or is this a common problem with all hondas ? What can I do to get more steering stability and sharpness at high speeds..??
Would upgrading the shocks or tyres help at all ?

Many Thanks for those who can help... :)
25-05-2008, 09:32 PM
d15z1SUX

my civic is like that too. i think most hondas are like that. well at least the 90's ones.
25-05-2008, 09:44 PM
onlykillzz

its the steering box and the gears inside it the only one that doesn't do it is the itr one also it way be your saybars if there stock then it will play at high speeds
25-05-2008, 10:31 PM
squish85

Quote:

Originally Posted by onlykillzz

its the steering box and the gears inside it the only one that doesn't do it is the itr one also it way be your saybars if there stock then it will play at high speeds

Do u mean the front or rear swaybar ? Should i be getting the ones from whiteline ?
25-05-2008, 10:34 PM
onlykillzz

its normally the back that you well notice the most but if you wont it to be really responsive then you need both and get them anything over 22mm front and back

btw this will promote over steer
25-05-2008, 10:38 PM
e240

I find that holding onto the steering really hard, elbows locked etc (aka Fast and Furious style) tends to exacerbate the problem.
25-05-2008, 10:42 PM
d15z1SUX

^^lol asian women style driving haha...
26-05-2008, 07:58 AM
JohnL

Weak dampers, either too soft from new and / or worn.
27-05-2008, 10:23 PM
55EXX

worn old bushes my friend. polyurethane
28-05-2008, 01:35 AM
squish85

Quote:

Originally Posted by 55EXX

worn old bushes my friend. polyurethane

Forgive my noobiness... but which bushes should i actually be replacing ?
28-05-2008, 03:36 AM
EG30

adding more castor would give you a firmer steering wheel.

did you mean the front end gets light and you loose steering feel when you floor the throttle? Or steering feels vague and light at higher speeds over 140km/h?

Your shocks still in good shape?
28-05-2008, 03:41 AM
squish85

Quote:

Originally Posted by EG30

adding more castor would give you a firmer steering wheel.

did you mean the front end gets light and you loose steering feel when you floor the throttle? Or steering feels vague and light at higher speeds over 140km/h?

Your shocks still in good shape?

A little of the first.. and mostly of the second.. Well.. I'm not sure about the condition of the shocks.. They're stock... btw...

I've decided to have koni yellows with JDM DC2R springs on the front.. (Because I want the dc2r ride height...) Hopefully that would solve my problem...

When you say adding more castor, how do I go about doing it ...? Bring it back to Honda ?
28-05-2008, 04:48 AM
EG30

you can add more castor with whiteline's castor kit, which is pretty much a washer kit installed on the control arms to create the additional castor angle. Not a very elegent setup but it sure works well and only cost about $50 plus install.

hard to troubleshoot your problem in front of the keyboard without experiencing the suitation myself. I've driven plenty of ED, EG civics with over 200-300ks on the clock with the orig suspension ie shocks, bushes and the rest that are getting worn and yet the car still tracked true and felt stable to me. And since you have half decent tyres and looks like 15" wheels ( rotas? ) so the vagueness wont be from gripless skinny tyres either.

koni yellows great choice, make sure you install them front and rear with the set of dc2r springs.

Best to get a competent and honest suspension place to check out your fundamentals before installing your mods and speculating what could be worn or not. Wilkinson suspension or Glide are the best in Perth in my opinion. I got a wheel align done at a bob jane tyre shop out of convenience and while they adjusted the toe settings fine and gave it the ok, they failed to notice I had 1 neg of positive camber on one wheel caused by a damaged stub axle that was bent when I mounted a kerb once.
28-05-2008, 05:09 AM
vinnY

^ while on topic, which kit would i be looking at?

Quote:

Originally Posted by whiteline pdf

F Caster adj kit - lwr c/arm KCA366 adds +0.66 deg
p 41
F Caster/camber adj kit - c/arm KCA371 +0.66 caster +/- 0.66 camber
p 41

ignoring the type of car, would i be looking for the caster kit alone or the caster/camber kit?
29-05-2008, 02:29 AM
EG30

not sure vinny, i bought the the castor adj kit 2 years ago and recently got adj camber via skunk2 adj upper control arms.

and .66 deg +/- camber adj not a lot of range really.
29-05-2008, 09:35 AM
TypeLess

I had that problem once, that was when i carried heavy load in my trunk. So the ride hight on the rear was a lot lower than the front. Maybe check the ride hight on your car, specially the back if it has been lowered.
29-05-2008, 09:43 AM
vinnY

yeah it didn't sound like much .66 degrees..
anyone recommend any kits for ek's?
30-05-2008, 10:55 PM
Limbo

just wondering what are you do driving at 140km/hr?

ANyway, the way you stop it is all new polyurothane bushes and newer firmer shocks. I did this before and it helped quite abit.

Also front upper and lower strut braces help again

To eliminate it completely you really need to change it your gonna to have to shorten the rack at the loss of normal steering.
31-05-2008, 12:49 AM
squish85

Quote:

Originally Posted by TypeLess

I had that problem once, that was when i carried heavy load in my trunk. So the ride hight on the rear was a lot lower than the front. Maybe check the ride hight on your car, specially the back if it has been lowered.

Might be what u mentioned TypeLess.. It seems my rear has not been lowered at all... the front are running stock shocks with Eibach springs..

I was driving along some twisty hill roads with a 110k limit in the dead of the night... (will not specify where it is... ;)).. Just hoping to get more handling outta my car..

Will try full konis and dc2r springs... then poly bushes or sway bars after that...
31-05-2008, 12:55 AM
vinnY

which eibach springs you running?
chances are the koni setup with the eibach's will be better than the dc2r springs with the koni's
31-05-2008, 01:01 AM
squish85

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinnY

which eibach springs you running?
chances are the koni setup with the eibach's will be better than the dc2r springs with the koni's

Not sure vinny...it was already installed when i bought the car... I only knew it was Eibach when i went underneath to service my car.. :) They're really low springs..

I'm running 195/55/15 and my front wheels have no gap from the around the top edges of the fender.. I decided on dc2r springs cos i wanted the same ride height as the dc2r.. (mine's abit too low..).. But i realise that I'm really taking the risk of having it up too high... hahaha :p
31-05-2008, 01:04 AM
vinnY

ah try to grab a part number :) google it and see what they are

on another note if you need some dc2r springs let me know, got a set here but decided to stick to my eibach's simply because i'm lazy :)
shouldn't be too hard shipping it to perth
31-05-2008, 04:47 AM
JohnL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Limbo

To eliminate it completely you really need to change it your gonna to have to shorten the rack at the loss of normal steering.

?????
31-05-2008, 04:52 AM
JohnL

Quote:

Originally Posted by squish85

But i realise that I'm really taking the risk of having it up too high... hahaha :p

Part of the problem may be running it too low, especially with soft dampers. With such a set up you may be bottoming out and this may well be contributing to instability / erratic handling on top of any instability caused purely by the soft damper rates.

At any rate, 140kmh on old stock dampers, asking for trouble...
31-05-2008, 09:02 AM
55EXX

firt point of call would be the spring and dampers along with wheel alignment. get that sorted first before bushes castor etc
31-05-2008, 11:33 PM
squish85

another point i noticed about my high speed handling... it seems that i am "getting" better traction in the wet.... was hitting it again at the freeway just a while ago.. and it seems the problem i described earlier had indeed been lessened in the rain.. (the steering feels firmer and more accurate)..

Correct me if this is just my illusion or is it really possible..?
01-06-2008, 01:14 AM
EG30

it think it's best for you to find a fren with a simliar car and get the person to drive your car and vice versa if possible. Otherwise you'll be chasing your own tail by new handling issues ( real or preceived ) one after another.
01-06-2008, 10:59 AM
JohnL

Quote:

Originally Posted by squish85

another point i noticed about my high speed handling... it seems that i am "getting" better traction in the wet.... was hitting it again at the freeway just a while ago.. and it seems the problem i described earlier had indeed been lessened in the rain.. (the steering feels firmer and more accurate)..

Correct me if this is just my illusion or is it really possible..?

The only thing I can think of might be to do with ambient temp. Was the temperature lower in these wet conditions?

Something I've noticed over the years, some cars handle slightly better in cooler conditions, and (without knowing for certain) I put this down to the temperature of the fluid in the dampers, i.e. cooler damper fluid is slightly thicker and as a result the damper is slightly stiffer in cooler conditions than warmer conditions. This might vary from damper to damper, and might be more significant with poorer quality and / or more worn dampers(?).
04-06-2008, 09:50 PM
55EXX

now i think it may be in your head. definatley get in another teg and see how it feels.
05-06-2008, 06:37 PM
squish85

Well.. guys.. found the problem today.... it seems all my tyres were really under-pressured.... 160kpa+ on fronts .. 184kpa on rear.... as opposed to 240kpa front and 230kpa rear....

I took it for a bashing after filling it up to specification... and it seems to handle heaps better... no more floating loose sensation when i vtec it up to 120+..

But otherwise.. I feel the handling above speeds on 140+ still needs some remedy...

P.S: Anyone in perth with a dc2 vtir i can test drive for comparison ? hahaha :P
06-06-2008, 07:57 PM
55EXX

sorry what is that in psi? there is a thread somewhere about what tyre pressusres people run. you'll find the is more to trye pressure than you think.
06-06-2008, 10:42 PM
vinnY

240 = ~35psi
230 = ~33psi

i've found 36/34 f/r COLD pretty comfy for day to day driving
08-06-2008, 05:13 PM
trism

tyre pressures should have been the very first thing you look at
08-06-2008, 06:21 PM
string

squish85: Can you actually give a decent description of what the 'problem' is?

I've always noticed that my steering will feel very light if at high speeds.. especially when I floor it up to vtec
Flooring it will make your steering lighter because you are taking load off the front wheels. Any time you have your foot on the throttle you are giving up some of your front grip for rear grip.

another point i noticed about my high speed handling... it seems that i am "getting" better traction in the wet.... was hitting it again at the freeway just a while ago.. and it seems the problem i described earlier had indeed been lessened in the rain.. (the steering feels firmer and more accurate)..
Better traction? In what way? Faster turn-in? Higher sweeping G's? Less under steer (lol)? Your previous 'problem' of steering lightness is not a problem or the problem.

Sounds like you have some loose-off-centre steering. Blown shocks, sloppy ball joints, worn tie-rod ends - the possibilities grow less the more information you give.

The 'loose sensation' you are talking about, is it that you don't feel the steering wheel controls the weight of the car? Shocks control movements of the sprung weight, and the shitter they get the less control you get in transitions the faster you go. If you want good stability and control at 140kph+ then you have lots of money to spend and lots of things to learn.

You can't go 140kph, turn the steering wheel, be ignorant of the physics of a vehicle, and remain alive all at the same time. Especially in a car which obviously has suspension problems (and probably more that you don't know about yet).
09-06-2008, 07:35 AM
JohnL

Quote:

Originally Posted by squish85

Well.. guys.. found the problem today.... it seems all my tyres were really under-pressured.... 160kpa+ on fronts .. 184kpa on rear.... as opposed to 240kpa front and 230kpa rear....

160kpa = 23psi, which is dangerously low, especially at higher velocities. To drive at high speed when you have no idea of even what your tyre pressures might be is very foolish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by squish85

But otherwise.. I feel the handling above speeds on 140+ still needs some remedy...

Handling at speeds over 140kmh needs no remedy, it is utterly irrelevant unless you race the car.

How old are you? How old do you think you're going to get? Driving at 140+kmh on the road, it won't be too long before you lose your licence, do some time, hurt yourself, hurt someone else, kill someone else, or kill yourself.
09-06-2008, 06:54 PM
55EXX

i don't give him long going 140+ and trying to turn quick. sloppy shocks and speed wobble is a bitch
09-06-2008, 07:06 PM
EG30

If someone dont even bother to check his tyre pressures regularly to get that low on pressure; should we be spending too much time writing a book on his possible suspension issues?