Honda suspension comparison.

[tseesinngwailo]

Thanks for the info JohnL, this is exactly why I love a forum like this, every 1000 stupid posts threads about nothing get forgotten when something as infomative as this is posted.

I am still not sure what car I will upgrade to, as I love the DC2R, but if I can stretch my budget, I want an EP3, I doubt both cars will ever be pushed to their limits.

Cheers, Chris

[nd55]

Autocross racing in the states was dominated by the EG/EK civics until the MX5 came along.

I suspect there's more than one Mini2 doing well now.

Those are my candidates for excellent road vehicle suspensions.

Proof mac strut can run it with SLA suspension, just not on a Camry

Nick.

PS. 98 CRVs had SLA arms like EG/EKs but don't try to take a hairpin turn in those. Proof that SLA isn't the bees knees either.

[Bludger]

Speaking of MacPherson strut. Anyone here driven a Suzuki Ignis Sport?? I have never driven a car with such modest grip but yet so much fun. With decent corner entry speed, you can slide this car using the rear-end to point the car.

This is one car you can throttle steer thru almost any corner. You can literally point this car with the right foot and the rear-end sliding. And the car is beautifully balanced.

An EK4 is quicker around the track but the driver of the Suzuki Ignis Sport will be grinning from ear to ear.

A-arms are great but a basic mac strut car can be fun, too.

any properly set up FWD will be able to be steered through a corner by using oversteer/understeer, via the throttle.

[chargeR]

any properly set up FWD will be able to be steered through a corner by using oversteer/understeer, via the throttle.

Stop spreading misinformation, FWD cars are understeering pigs and cannot be driven fast .

[dinorider]

Agreed. But no car that I have driven handles anything like the Suzuki Ignis Sport (factory tune). You have to drive it to believe how much fun it is. Oversteer on demand. More oversteer fun than any RWD that I have driven.

The Ignis Sport actually makes you worry that the replacement tyres you put on it might have too much grip and ruin the fun.

Haha, agreed about the Ignis Sport. The current Swift Sport is very similar on the limit. I have driven both of them. Sometimes its not always about the ultimate laptime.

As for all the talk about suspensions, besides real cars, racing RC touring cars will teach you alot. I've been racing RC cars (track grip racing, none of the RC drifting nonsense) for close to a decade, and current generation RC touring cars have near infinite suspension adjustments. roll centres, anti-squat, anti-dive, camber, caster, steering ackermann, toe, camber gain, damper bump and rebound, springs,down stops, ride height, anti-roll bars all are tunable.

Need proof? Download and read through the X-Ray setup guide book here for a detailed rundown on chassis and suspension tuning in 1/10 scale, with much of it portable to 1/1 scale:

http://www.teamxray.com/teamxray/sho...p?file_id=6143

RC drivers at the pointy end of the field are chasing tenths of seconds, and I've learnt more about suspension tuning and geometry on the RC track than anywhere else.

[Sydneykid]

Having race engineered EF, EG, EK DC2 and DC5’s I am in absolutely no doubt that the front of the DC5’s were by far the hardest to set up. Their limited suspension travel and ridiculous amounts of bump steer were difficult to overcome and hence took considerable time and effort, not to mention money. Their MacStrut design is the route of the problem but the steering arm and rack location and the centre mount steering arms are in many ways far more of an issue.

I personally like the EF style of double wishbone with its radius rods as I can easily overcome the typical Japanese car’s lack of caster. Slip the radius rods into the lath, machine up longer threads and adjust away. As mentioned in a previous post, the problem with the EF design is the lack of rigidity for the front mounts of the radius rods. Which is really difficult to fix, extending a triangulated roll cage out to the radiator support panel area is not something I would consider. Plus it is not allowed in most forms of motorsport.

The problem I find with the EK is the mounting of the front upper control arm and the one piece lower control arm. It makes adjusting caster and camber a real exercise in frustration. There are solutions but they are neither elegant nor cost effective.

That leaves the EG, which to me is the definitive Honda suspension system. With it's 2 piece lower control and upper control arm mounted pivot points it's easy to adjust for camber, caster and toe, very tolerant of height and with no real bump steer issues.


Cheers
Gary

[Bludger]

Having race engineered EF, EG, EK DC2 and DC5’s I am in absolutely no doubt that the front of the DC5’s were by far the hardest to set up. Their limited suspension travel and ridiculous amounts of bump steer were difficult to overcome and hence took considerable time and effort, not to mention money. Their MacStrut design is the route of the problem but the steering arm and rack location and the centre mount steering arms are in many ways far more of an issue.

I personally like the EF style of double wishbone with its radius rods as I can easily overcome the typical Japanese car’s lack of caster. Slip the radius rods into the lath, machine up longer threads and adjust away. As mentioned in a previous post, the problem with the EF design is the lack of rigidity for the front mounts of the radius rods. Which is really difficult to fix, extending a triangulated roll cage out to the radiator support panel area is not something I would consider. Plus it is not allowed in most forms of motorsport.

The problem I find with the EK is the mounting of the front upper control arm and the one piece lower control arm. It makes adjusting caster and camber a real exercise in frustration. There are solutions but they are neither elegant nor cost effective.

That leaves the EG, which to me is the definitive Honda suspension system. With it's 2 piece lower control and upper control arm mounted pivot points it's easy to adjust for camber, caster and toe, very tolerant of height and with no real bump steer issues.


Cheers
Gary

not that I would know, but I never thought there was much difference between the ek and eg.

only difference was one was a one piece lca and the other was two piece.

can't adjust castor on ek and eg either.

[Sydneykid]

not that I would know, but I never thought there was much difference between the ek and eg.

only difference was one was a one piece lca and the other was two piece.

can't adjust castor on ek and eg either.

Take a close look at the difference in the front upper control arm inner pivot points. The EG has the bushes separate from the upper control arm, so they are much easier to adjust camber with eccentric crush tubes in the bushes. With the EK you have to replace the upper control arm and adjust camber with a sliding ball joint. Much more expensive and not legal in most forms of circuit racing.

The EG lower control arm is 2 piece, so to add caster you simply space the two pieces. The EK lower control arm is one piece, so you can't separate it. That means adding a limited amount of caster with an offset (outwards) rear bush.

I wrote an article for Hot 4's some years back on setting up EG suspension and the ability to enhance caster and camber was the catalyst. I also designed an EG caster kit for Whiteline at the same time. We ran an EG Si hatch at the Bathurst 12 Hour in 1993 for a 3rd in class, so I am rather familiar with that model.

Cheers
Gary

[Bludger]

thank you.

[Bludger]

in my DC2, which I believe has the same setup as the EG

How confidant and sound is the idea if I were to say add enough washers OR fabricate a set of spacers to fit in between the two piece front LCA.

What are (if any) the downfalls of this Idea???

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the many brands of traction bars available on the market. Is there any detriment to the movement of the front suspension if BOTH modifications were implemented?? (increased castor & traction Bar)

Would binding occur from the altered geometry? stress on the bushings? unwanted forces/stresses being applied to the LCA via both modifications?

[Sydneykid]

in my DC2, which I believe has the same setup as the EG

Yep

How confidant and sound is the idea if I were to say add enough washers OR fabricate a set of spacers to fit in between the two piece front LCA.

I have been doing that on multiple road and race cars for 17 years, is that enough confidence?.

What are (if any) the downfalls of this Idea???

You need to know what you are doing, you need to use the right components, such as high tensile bolts and spacers plus nylock nuts etc.

Whiteline used to sell the kit that I engineered containing the right components and detailed instructions, I think they still do, KCA301, it cost around $60.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the many brands of traction bars available on the market. Is there any detriment to the movement of the front suspension if BOTH modifications were implemented?? (increased castor & traction Bar)

Sorry, I don't know what you mean by "traction bar"?

Would binding occur from the altered geometry?

Nope

stress on the bushings?

Yes, the inner lower control arm bush is distorted, but not beyond its capability. I have had the same Mugen hardness up rubber bushes in one of the race cars since 1994. We usualy use polyurethane bushes, they wear out a little quicker but don't flex as much as rubber, so they help retain the suspension geometery

unwanted forces/stresses being applied to the LCA via both modifications?

No more than normal.


Cheers
Gary

[mocchi]

The EG lower control arm is 2 piece, so to add caster you simply space the two pieces. The EK lower control arm is one piece, so you can't separate it. That means adding a limited amount of caster with an offset (outwards) rear bush.
by space the two pieces you mean add washers?

I wrote an article for Hot 4's some years back on setting up EG suspension and the ability to enhance caster and camber was the catalyst. I also designed an EG caster kit for Whiteline at the same time. We ran an EG Si hatch at the Bathurst 12 Hour in 1993 for a 3rd in class, so I am rather familiar with that model.
please link me, i would love to get more knowledge from this.

thanks!