Opinions - B18CR Bottom End with Alaniz head

[ewendc2r]

.. And its for time attack -- QR for starters.

[Benson]

I think you are concentrating too much on RPM's. (Ruin peoples motors) Ill rather work on the midrange then peak power overall

Going to a bigger displacement (b20) will be the more efficient way of doing things but if you know better with the 1.8 then its your choice

Listen to the guys that have done it already. Dont be stubborn, listen and learn from what have been said on both ozhonda and clubitr

[tinkerbell]

But the work you are talking about still requires me to pull the block out of the car which means its unlikely to be useable for at least 1 wk (and be a pain in the ass to get it to a workshop & expensive if I get them to do it all)..

look, seriously, no offence intended, but if this is your position/attitude/situation...

quit NOW.

the equation is: figure out how much it will cost and how long it will take and multiply one of those by two and the other by three...

it is random which costs 3x more more or takes 3x longer...

[tinkerbell]

I guess with the head and cam combination on the stock bottom end I would be dissapointed with less than 140kw@wheel peak and strong midrange..

btw - any examples of AU B18C7's running 140kW on stock bottom ends?

what bolt-ons did they have?

[ewendc2r]

I think you are concentrating too much on RPM's. (Ruin peoples motors) Ill rather work on the midrange then peak power overall

Going to a bigger displacement (b20) will be the more efficient way of doing things but if you know better with the 1.8 then its your choice

Listen to the guys that have done it already. Dont be stubborn, listen and learn from what have been said on both ozhonda and clubitr

*sigh* -- So you don't think its worthwhile doing unless I go ahead with a rebuild as well? i.e. Should I just keep it stock as a rock internally until I am ready to do a full build? Please see next post..

I would imagine stock CR / Bottom End and Toda B should be good for 135kw with stock head. I don't think an extra 5kw's is asking much with a ported head. I think that most people with 140kw or higher have already gone through an engine rebuild, not saying that the bottom end can't support that power in the first place?

[ewendc2r]

*sigh* -- So you don't think its worthwhile doing unless I go ahead with a rebuild as well? i.e. Should I just keep it stock as a rock internally until I am ready to do a full build? Please see next post..

Just lost a long bloody post argh ..

Tinkerbell -- I already know that, that is why I am so reserved against pulling the block out. I am well aware of the blow out effect of time and cost. Thus the reason of looking at installing the first.

Looking at it this way.

If the engine was stock as a rock, you'd likely want to cam the motor correct?

If you could get for the same price either a set of cams or a full head package, which way would you go?

On the basis that you would get the full head package instead, whats the harm of the benefit without having to drop the engine from the car? I don't understand why everyone is so adamant about rebuilding the motor / going all out when I still haven't seen a technical valid reason to support WHY other than 'you'll get more power'. IF the bottom end can rev happily to 9000rpm (which from my understanding the ITR bottom end can, to around 9300rpm pushing limits) then CR aside with a rebuild, why wouldn't putting a head package on that capitalises on that rev range (say Jun III) be appropriate? Especially given that the head can be re-used on future motors? The only shortfall I can see is that potentially the cam is still developing power at 9000rpm and due to the duration / ramp it is seemingly suitable for higher CR motors for most effective burn. But if that cam develops more midrange than the Toda B for example (which it is claimed to do) then whats the harm of setting the rev limit while the cam is still developing top end? Then when time comes to rebuild bottom end, same head can be used and with higher CR more potential power can be found... ??

The more I read, research and listen, the more confused I become.

[tinkerbell]

a worked head + cams wont get you to 140kW on stock bottom end, will it?

that is our point.

you named your goal.

we told you how (we think) is a good way to get there...

look, you have already bought the head, all you need to do is get cams, then install and tune it.

easy done in a weekend, and might get you to 130kW (if the head is suitable)...

you want more?

you gotta drop the block or try ITBs or F/I.

[tinkerbell]

I would imagine stock CR / Bottom End and Toda B should be good for 135kw with stock head. I don't think an extra 5kw's is asking much with a ported head. I think that most people with 140kw or higher have already gone through an engine rebuild, not saying that the bottom end can't support that power in the first place?

ahhh, OK, so you are talking imaginary Toda watts?

for some perspective:

a B18C7 with Toda B cams and 4-2-1 header + Mugen intake plus full dyno tune made 120kW...

and has trouble keeping up with a worked B20VTEC that made 120kW on the same dyno.

[ewendc2r]

ahhh, OK, so you are talking imaginary Toda watts?

for some perspective:

a B18C7 with Toda B cams and 4-2-1 header + Mugen intake plus full dyno tune made 120kW...

and has trouble keeping up with a worked B20VTEC that made 120kW on the same dyno.

Imaginary Toda Watts? I thought they were one of the more reliable groups with regards to reported power outputs? Jansen's car on Toda B's put out around 135kw+ I understand which I was I'd expect over stock for a 'mild' cam? Weird .. ?

I am taking in everything you are saying, just thinking through multiple scenarious and can't get my head around your experiences / recommendations.. If I'm only going to achieve another 9kw on stock bottom end from a built / ported head, then I'll bin the idea now. It sounds like it'd be more beneficial getting a set of ITB's and running them off the stock motor.

This is getting hard over the forum, I think I can more easily explan myself over the phone if someone wouldn't mind lending me their ear and a bit of time tonight / one night? Probably sort out all my questions / issues quicker.

Also, a comment was said that flow is more important than compression, can you elaborate for my circumstances? Is it a catch 22, i.e. No point having high compression without good flow, and no point having high flow without high compression? (which would make sense to a degree).

thanks.

[tinkerbell]

yes, you said "i imagine" that xyz...

i am comparing 120kW to 120kW on the same dyno,

for reference, here are other numbers from the same dyno:

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113406

here is another thread to read to 'calibrate' your imagination:

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91415

I think I can more easily explan myself over the phone if someone wouldn't mind lending me their ear and a bit of time tonight / one night? Probably sort out all my questions / issues quicker.

some contact details for you to consider:

http://www.todaracing.com.au/toda/gp/

[Benson]

We have both told you what route to go about things. End of the day displacement is always greater. Like yourself Tinks, you have seen the potential of stock rebuilt B20vtec. Even with around 10:1 CR, b20's can make up to 135kw with stock ITR head

[fatboyz39]

9300rpm on a stock ITR bottom end wont last long.