EK9 front strut bar onto an EK1

[mugen_ctr]

depends how ur setup is already, stock or some mods already? I think many tend to go for the type-r handling, using type-R swaybars, as it has the correct amount of thickness which equates to the correct balance of under an over steer. Factor in coil-overs, with similar spring rates to type-r or higher, it would be pretty much like a go cart.


remember that manufactures purposely increase under steer to all vehicles so idiots who dont know how to drive dont spin it an wrap em selfs around a pole

[Alvis]

right - so going back to the fact this thread was created to talk about an EK1 - does anyone know if an EK9 Type R front and rear swaybar will fit on an EK1 sedan chassis?

[sw1fty]

honestly,
since i put the dc2r rear sway on my car, it now oversteers more than understeers,
i think i need a bigger front sway or an alignment to fix it up...

yes, ek9 rear will fit but u need new lca's since the stock ones dont have mounting holes in them.
as for front, im not sure, mine came stock with a front sway bar.

[Tai]

EK1 sedan has front sway bar, but its smaller than ek9/ek4.

rear lca has holes for sway bar to fit.

honestly,
since i put the dc2r rear sway on my car, it now oversteers more than understeers,
i think i need a bigger front sway or an alignment to fix it up...

yes, ek9 rear will fit but u need new lca's since the stock ones dont have mounting holes in them.
as for front, im not sure, mine came stock with a front sway bar.

[Alvis]

ok cool

and for everyday street driving is there any point in fitting a front caster kit - Does this basically try to minimise the front of the car raising under acceleration and diving under braking? ...sounds more like a track option...

[GenesisEG]

I'm going to give an answer in regards to the reason for understeer being made more prominent after installing a front brace. I might be mistaken, so please forgive me if this is so, but it seems to make sense to me. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

In a car that has no chassis bracing, the chassis is flexible. Under cornering stress, the car twists and flexes as the grip from the tires and the mass of the car struggle against one another. The centrifugal forces generated as a result of cornering are attempting to pull the car outward from the inside of the corner.

Now I know that we're not talking about coilovers here, but for the sake of using extremes to make a point, I'm going to refer to them.

In a car that has stock springs, shocks and no bracing, the car responds to these centrifugal forces by rolling and flexing. The rolling is usually cured by installing stiffer springs and shocks (usually coilovers), the flexing needs to be addressed by using braces, but both affect each other.

Both of these forces cause both the contact surface between the tire and the road, and the distribution of weight, to change during cornering.

As the car rolls, the weight is shifted to the outside tire, and removed from the inside tire. I call this rotational force, as the car rotates around the centre of gravity.

As the car flexes, the strut assembly, wheel and tire all lean, causing the surface of the tire to meet unevenly with the road surface, reducing the total amount of surface area.

On a stock car, these forces sort of work together by pressing the outside tire into the road, causing its potential grip to increase as the friction between the tire and the road increases due to the increased pressure. The downside is that the inside tire is doing sweet bugger all.

If you install coilovers and start bracing the front of the car, it responds differently to the centrifugal forces applied to it. Instead of rotating around the centre of gravity and leaning toward the outside tire, it moves more laterally. It no longer rolls, but strafes.

Using average tires, you will notice more understeer, as the pressure being applied to the outside tire is lessened. The pressure is now being more evenly distributed over the tires. Generally speaking, average tires don't respond to this lateral movement too well.

In effect, what you are doing by stiffening up the car, is making the tires work harder.

If you install great tires on a stock car, the inside tire will still be doing nothing during cornering, as all of the weight is being shifted to the outside tire as a result of the body roll, and the flexion of the car will cause the contact patch to be reduced.

When you install coilovers, you reduce that body roll and change the way the weight shift affects the car, causing lateral rather than rotational force. The tires are then able to work together to keep the car glued to the road. Four tires are better than two, and by flattening out that body, you're causing the inside tires to work more. However, until you install that bracing, your tires will still not be making maximum contact with the road.

So really, you need to look at every upgrade as a small part of a big picture. Not every upgrade is going to give you positive results straight away. Stiffening up your car and retaining dodgy tires is going to reduce performance rather than improve it.

One more thing with bracing, and that's consistency. In a stiff car, handling during cornering becomes more predictable. Good bushings, a good shock/spring combo and the appropriate bracing, along with good brakes, wheels and tires, will all make the car much more pleasurable to drive. You'll be able to corner hard knowing almost exactly how the car will respond because the unpredictable flexing and twisting has been reduced.

I know that was a long, possibly ill-informed and somewhat off-topic post, but you see why bracing the front causes understeer, especially in FWD cars. Until you upgrade those tires, don't expect to see much in the way of positive results, unless you count being able to predict that extra understeer more easily as positive.

Hope this helps, and I really hope it's not all completely wrong!

[sw1fty]

EK1 sedan has front sway bar, but its smaller than ek9/ek4.

rear lca has holes for sway bar to fit.

oh my bad, thought they didnt have holes

[Alvis]

Wow! Thanks GenesisEG - I'm no suspension/handling expert but all makes sense to me.

So I guess we can use that same principle as to why you get understeer when you increase rigidity at the rear of the car with a thicker sway bar - would I be right in saying that?

[mugen_ctr]

Good tires make a huge difference, i had bf goodrich sports tires on, what a difference! car glued to the road, but body roll = Fail! lol, with the help of a rear sway bar, huge improvement!

Thicker rear sway bar, means u need more force in terms to twist it to allow flex, so yes, BUT in saying so, Its best to run Thicker at the front an thinner at the rear, a general rule of thumb, not just me, but many manufactures, oem or aftermarket, as said, its all about balance, no one wants to understeer or oversteer, many strive for cart like handling, but of course, its much easier to just get a caterham or radical SR3/SR4 lol

And also, there are other ways to increase over/under steer, sway bars being one of em, tires, suspension etc etc, its the whole package in the end really

[GenesisEG]

Actually Alvis, when you stiffen up the rear, you tend to get more oversteer. The same principle applies, if the lateral force exceeds the grip of the tires, they will slide sideways during cornering. The stiffer the car is, the more the car tends toward lateral force over rotational force, and the more emphasised the oversteer or understeer becomes. That's why drift cars have softer front springs and rock solid rear springs, so the front grips more and the back slides more. You can actually control the car's tendency toward over or understeer simply by increasing or decreasing rigidity in the front and rear of the vehicle.

The biggest and often most understated upgrade for handling is tires, but all in all, it's balance you want. The harder and stiffer your car becomes, the more reliant it is on tire grip.

Then you get into toe, camber and caster settings...

[Alvis]

That's been a great help GenesisEG - thanks for sharing your knowledge on suspension and handling, very helpful for us noobs in understanding how everything works as package - front and rear.

Cheers mate +1 rep