CU2 Accord Euro steering and tyre life

[Blue Euro]

Bought my Euro new in Jan 2009. Came with Yokohama Decibel E70 tyres. Handled perfectly till a tyre rotation at 17000km. Then steered like a dog. It became difficult to hold a straight line on slightly uneven road surfaces. The vehicle also did not easily steer out of even the shallowest bitumen rut – something I have since learned that the steering/suspension industry calls “tram-tracking”. Apart from becoming unpleasant to drive, the car was unsafe in some circumstances. While braking at slower speeds over a bumpy surface, the steering wheel needed to be held firmly to avoid sudden unwanted turning to the left or right. Eight months of frustration followed. Selling dealer, who had also done all servicing, denied existence of any problem. As did local Honda Australia rep - so dealer told me. Answer I got was that the car was "within specification". After 3 visits back to dealer, multiple enquiries with RACQ and an RACQ test I learned that the tyres were all worn heavily on their inside edges but not much on their outside edges. Dealer responded by wanting to sell me 4 new tyres at about $300 each - while still denying any problem existed. By then the car had travelled only 24000km.
At RACQ suggestion I sought the opinion of a steering and suspension specialist. Like everyone else who has driven the car except the dealer, they found the steering to be poor. They believe this was initiated by the Euro’s built in rear wheel negative camber which is a feature of many late model cars. It enhances handling but causes the inner edges of the rear tyres to wear much faster than the outer edges. The front wheels have little if any negative camber and wear more evenly. When swapped front to back at the service, the unevenly worn tyres were then on the front, causing the poor steering. The steering and suspension specialist said the only solution was new tyres. At $340 each I was not impressed with only 24000km life. Dealer told me the Yoko E70 normal life was 30000km. RACQ and steering/suspension specialist said should get 40000 if looked after. Dealer had allegedly done all servicing to Honda recomendations - they certainly charged me for tyre checks and rotations at 6 and 12 months. I then wrote detailed letter to the Dealer Principal asking to split the cost of new Yokos 50/50. To their credit, they agreed to this quickly - I guess because he was confronted with a pile of evidence and the realisation I was not going to drop the matter. Of course the "50%" was calculated on full RRP (which the dealer would never have paid) and I had to pay for 100% of the required wheel alignment. The steering suspension report also cost me $105. So after 8 months the car finally handles/steers the way it should and used to.
What I cannot understand is the continued denial of any problem and the apparent lack of concern for reputational risk to the dealer and Honda. I cannot believe that neither does not know about this issue - there have been thousands of these cars sold around the world - all with built in negative camber on the rear wheels. Why don't they suggest to Euro owners to get a wheel rotation every 5000km? The tyres will still wear on the inside edges but evening it out between all 4 wheels will surely delay the onset of lousy steering beyond 17000km. Or maybe they hope most owners will just fork out for new tyres every 12-18 months - with a tasty margin built in for the dealer.
Any way finally fixed now and I am back to loving the car.

[chunsa]

Thanks for the heads up in regards to the negative camber on the rear tyres. Guess it's still the same like the CL9. Did the dealer really rotate the tyres? What tyres did you replace the worn ones with?

I guess I should go rotate my tyres soon as I've just hit 10,XXX kms without rotation and wheel alignment..

[Type R Positive]

I had those db decibels standard too, only lasted 30,000kms. They are just a shit tyre.
I went to toyo transpath mp4's and the tyres have next to no wear with 30,000kms on them.
One thing I have found too is, regular wheel alignments are mandatory. I get one every 20,000kms and just had it done last week.
Toe was out 4.2mm on the front!

[buddah51au]

I have no problems at all with my yoko db decibels. 32500km. rotate every 5000kms & less than 1/2 worn. I wouldn't hesitate to buy them again. I run 36 psi f & r.

[praja6]

I have no problems at all with my yoko db decibels. 32500km. rotate every 5000kms & less than 1/2 worn. I wouldn't hesitate to buy them again. I run 36 psi f & r.

Does the tyre wearing also relying on the air pressure pSI using.. You seems using 36PSI which is higher than what dealers recommend(i use 34psi all 4)....Also you are rotating evey 5k...

Thanks for the valuable advice buddah

[Type R Positive]

I found at 34 psi the edges wear out Praja. Buddah and I do mostly highway speeds too, 36psi and even higher help save fuel at the higher speeds. Also why mine wore out so quickly as higher speeds mean lots of premature tyre wear. Seeing as 99% of those 30,000kms were done at 110km/h....
Thought is the front tyres wear twice as quick as the rears, since they do all the work. Regular rotation is needed for regular wear.

[Lemonhead]

good thread, thanks Blue Euro.

[schonda]

Im sorry you had to go through that blue euro. But thanks for the explanation. My CL9 I have to hold the steering tight it shakes a lot and turns left n right easily unless the road is VERY smooth. I can understand a big pot hole making it move but mine turns and shakes all over the place, parramatta road makes my arms tired after driving on it.

So new tires will fix this ai? A lot of people told me it may be a leak in the steering pump hose...my steering is heavy as well compared to a mates euro.

What's this negative chamber business anyway? And why doedo the euro's always get out of alignment?

I found a useful site re: steering problems. http://www.aa1car.com/library/steerpul.htm

im expeiencing a lot of bump steer to the point i sometimes dont look forward to driving the car or am not confident with it, my sis's ford festiva built in 1997 is sometimes easier to drive, i really want to fix this bump steer issue.

[Blue Euro]

Thanks for the heads up in regards to the negative camber on the rear tyres. Guess it's still the same like the CL9. Did the dealer really rotate the tyres? What tyres did you replace the worn ones with?

I guess I should go rotate my tyres soon as I've just hit 10,XXX kms without rotation and wheel alignment..

Hi Chunsa. Even though the owner's manual requires tyre rotation at 6 months and the dealer charged me for it, I suspect the first time they were actually rotated was not till the 12 months service. By then the car incl tyres had 17000km on the clock. The tyres I replaced the worn ones with were the same again ie Yoko Decibel E70 for 2 reasons. First, all the experts say they are an excellent tyre. Secondly the spare in the boot was that type and had never been used - so now I have 5 matching new tyres. Yes, I suggest you rotate your tyres now and every 5000km. The problem for me was more rotation rather than wheel alignment - when my problem was finally diagnosed, the alignment was not too bad. Only just outside Honda's spec I was told.

[Blue Euro]

Im sorry you had to go through that blue euro. But thanks for the explanation. My CL9 I have to hold the steering tight it shakes a lot and turns left n right easily unless the road is VERY smooth. I can understand a big pot hole making it move but mine turns and shakes all over the place, parramatta road makes my arms tired after driving on it.

So new tires will fix this ai? A lot of people told me it may be a leak in the steering pump hose...my steering is heavy as well compared to a mates euro.

What's this negative chamber business anyway? And why doedo the euro's always get out of alignment?

I found a useful site re: steering problems. http://www.aa1car.com/library/steerpul.htm

im expeiencing a lot of bump steer to the point i sometimes dont look forward to driving the car or am not confident with it, my sis's ford festiva built in 1997 is sometimes easier to drive, i really want to fix this bump steer issue.

Hello Schonda. Your steering problem sounds just like mine. Steering wheel pulled left or right over even small bumps. If like mine, yours is caused by uneven wear across each front tyre because they used to be on the back where the inner edges get very worn compared to outer edges, then you probably will need new tyres on front at least. If your tyres aren't too old maybe there is enough tread left that they they can be salvaged by some rotation - suggest you ask a specialist tyre supplier eg a Bridgestone outlet. I will be having my tyres looked after by one of those places from now on rather than a Honda dealer. Many tyre outlets like Bridgestone have maintenance programs wher they check the tyres and rotate them every 5000km. It costs a small amount for each visit but I suspect well worth it to extend the life of a $1300 set of tyres.
Re negative camber, I got the following from Wikipedia entry for "camber angle'. The article also has some great illustrations. Camber angle is the angle made by the wheels of a vehicle; specifically, it is the angle between the vertical axis of the wheels used for steering and the vertical axis of the vehicle when viewed from the front or rear. It is used in the design of steering and suspension. If the top of the wheel is farther out than the bottom (that is, away from the axle), it is called positive camber; if the bottom of the wheel is farther out than the top, it is called negative camber. Camber angle alters the handling qualities of a particular suspension design; in particular, negative camber improves grip when cornering. This is because it places the tire at a more optimal angle to the road, transmitting the forces through the vertical plane of the tire, rather than through a shear force across it. Another reason for negative camber is that a rubber tire tends to roll on itself while cornering. If the tire had zero camber, the inside edge of the contact patch would begin to lift off of the ground, thereby reducing the area of the contact patch. By applying negative camber, this effect is reduced, thereby maximizing the contact patch area. Note that this is only true for the outside tire during the turn; the inside tire would benefit most from positive camber.
Hope this helps and good luck.

[buddah51au]

Praja, tyre wear is related to many factors which include tyre pressure, rotation as well as how you drive the car. Personally I believe 34psi is too low on a CU2, I run 36 all round & put it up to 38 on long trips. The penalty is a firmer ride, the advantage is better fuel consumption.

I rotate my tyres every 5000km & always bring the spare into the rotation, so in theory at the end of the tyre life all tyres should be worn equally. Also remember that the front tyres on front wheel drive cars wear a lot more than rear tyres. I guess a ballpark figure for wear would be 80% front/ 20% rear. Wheel alignment is critical when it comes to tyre wear.

[tony1234]

Praja, tyre wear is related to many factors which include tyre pressure, rotation as well as how you drive the car. Personally I believe 34psi is too low on a CU2, I run 36 all round & put it up to 38 on long trips. The penalty is a firmer ride, the advantage is better fuel consumption.

I rotate my tyres every 5000km & always bring the spare into the rotation, so in theory at the end of the tyre life all tyres should be worn equally. Also remember that the front tyres on front wheel drive cars wear a lot more than rear tyres. I guess a ballpark figure for wear would be 80% front/ 20% rear. Wheel alignment is critical when it comes to tyre wear.

As above^^I reckon you need a good 4 wheel alignment.I had similar problems with my CL9.Once i found a place that can do a proper 4 wheel alignment these problems went away.Most tyre places are clueless when it comes to doing proper alignments.