Bang for Buck: ek9 springs/shocks on Em1/Ek4

[Alvis]

^ You know what man, you absolutely read my mind. I was literally just doing a search comparing Spoon v KONI Yellow shock data to see the difference.

I have the Spoon data below, but I have no idea how to interpret this - does anyone know what this means in 'very simple' language?

COM/TEN
0.05m/sec:
F85/-50kgf
R60/-36kgf

0.1m/sec:
F120/-84kgf
R90/-55kgf

0.3m/sec:
F218/-147kgf
R148/-83kgf

My spring rates are:
lbs (pounds) = 320F/200R.
kg/cm = 6.5F~ 5.5R

If I was to combine these shock rates with the spring rate would this = medium/ firm / hard / harsh ride quality?

OK guys, I'm pretty sure I've worked out what those shock figures mean - now correct me if I'm wrong - but:

1. The Spoon fixed damper numbers above are showing compression (com) and rebound (ten) (note the KONIs are rebound adjustable valved only - which is not necessarily a bad thing)

2. 0.05, 0.1 and 0.3/ sec refers to the shaft velocity of the damper in metres per second


----------------------------------

SO, if we look at a shaft velocity of 0.1m/sec this means the compression force applied to the front is 120kg and 90kg at the rear.

Essentially, the higher the velocity = the higher the damping.

This is also a non-linear relationship. This means if you double the velocity it doesn't necessarily mean the damping is doubled, it may be as much as four times as much for example/

For the below data I have drawn on some of the info from a motorcycle tech article, but regardless car or bike, the theory is the same.

----------------------------------
So know that we know this, the next question is what does this really mean and how can we understand the data?

I've tried to replicate the Spoon fixed damper rebound and compression data on a simple chart to show a curve with rebound and compression - again if someone can confirm if I've got this right, that would be great.

Note: the rebound graph is inverted because we call compressive forces positive and tensile forces are considered negative. To get a more complete picture of the entire damping curve, simply put the two curves together: Each time the shock goes through a complete cycle, it passes through zero twice-once at the bottom of the stroke and once at the top of the stroke. When the wheel hits a bump, the shock accelerates to a maximum velocity, slows down and then stops compressing.

At this point, the vertical velocity of the shock is zero. It then changes direction, accelerates in the negative direction, slows down and stops again when it's done extending:




NOW, the next question obviously is: what part of the curve is low-speed and what part is high-speed - what's a harsh ride and what's an acceptable ride? There are not specific terms defining specific velocities, they are relative terms so I guess I have to compare it to other shock data if I can find it to find this answer.

Source: http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9612_tech/index.html
The point is, even though the terms high- and low-speed damping are not specific velocities, they do allow suspension tuners and designers to communicate. Dyno tests have shown that velocities as low as 0.05 m/s are very important when making changes to a damping curve.

Remember that compression (or bump-damping) occurs when the wheel contacts a bump and compresses, and rebound or tension damping occurs as the spring forces the shock or fork to extend. The fact that the compression velocity is forced by the size and shape of the bump means it sees a very wide range of velocities.

Rebound, on the other hand, is largely controlled by the spring force and therefore sees a much smaller range of velocities. Typically, rebound may see one third of the velocity of compression.

----------------------

Let me know what you guys think and if I've got this right or I'm talking out of my arse lol

[liberx]

This is good stuff - great see someone do their homework to help make decisions for the desired outcome.

To me the graph is a bit mixed up when following the X axis (shaft speed). Starts at zero rebound, gets faster (OK) then suddenly switches to zero compression speed (which it physically can't do). The data points joining between fast rebound and slow compression (the middle part/cross over) will be incorrect. Reversing the first part of the X axis (to indicate direction and speed) would make more sense IMO

What you can see though clearly (still) is that:
1. Fronts provide more damping (to match higher spring rate, and more weight)
2. Damping effect increases at a rate higher than the shaft speed (non linear)

It is generally acknowledged that compression rates have a greater effect on ride quality, while rebound does most of the work in controlling body movements. In terms of deciding if the Spoons are a better option than Konis though - without comparative data it doesn't help much - other than the fact that you've learnt a something (which is worth it by itself).

Yes, Spoon have optimised their products to work together (on day 1 at least) - and have spent a lot doing so.

However the adjust-ability in the Konis is hard to pass up - as all dampers (shocks) go off over time. Adjusting to personal preferences (or even for conditions) is attractive as well.

[Alvis]

Thanks liberx - I was waiting for someone to reply for their thoughts (still learning about all this!)

Yep, I think you're right on the chart - I knew something wasn't quite right - but I've revised it as you said.

I've been thinking about it a bit, and even though the Spoon's are a good product and match the springs I feel it might be too harsh for what I want in my daily. I think everyone on this forum can't be wrong about the KONI - while I've seen some comparative KONI data which makes me believe the Spoon's sit somewhere between full hard and mid hard (if that's a word), the KONI's just give you that extra flexibility to make changes that suit how you want the car to drive.

Adjustable and good value for money. What else could you want

[mugen_ctr]

imo, koni are more street performance, and spoon is more track/street orientated shockers, u wont find any one running spoon springs+shocks, an i think u already know why lol $$$$.... for the same price, in todays world, theres fair bit variety now... unlike in the good old 90's, where spoon, mugen and jun would be the only option

But if u were to go koni, might i add, maybe going to koni ground control sleeves be the better alternative? many swear by the kono+GC combo in the states, i guess what im getting to is, it has what u need, with the added benefit of full coilover adjustable functions, dampers and ride height control yet still retain its stock strut look/function.

as far as shock dynos go, 9 outta 10, including me would have zero clue on it lol.... but from my understanding, shockers should be tailored to the roads u drive on....

[90LAN]

Yes Lan, you do make a good point about stopping the compression of springs up a driveway, but if the driveway is steep with say a spoon drain at the top (like I have), it can beach ur car if it's too low. That said, with coilovers height adjustment can take care of that, but unless you get more up-market coilovers, you cannot also have decent daily drive ride quality.

Depends what level of harshness you can take, but being a married man I can say the wife wouldn't be too happy having cheap coilies on the daily workhorse. As a weekend car with another car as a soft daily then you could by all means go cheap coilovers IMO.

plenty of good coilovers for daily duties that are comfortable
just have to ask people what works
just get teins ss if you want a soft coilover for the street
pretty much the same spring rating as any lower spring

shock and spring combo's can also be un-comfortable with the bouncing effect with mis-matched set ups

[Alvis]

imo, koni are more street performance, and spoon is more track/street orientated shockers, u wont find any one running spoon springs+shocks, an i think u already know why lol $$$$.... for the same price, in todays world, theres fair bit variety now... unlike in the good old 90's, where spoon, mugen and jun would be the only option

But if u were to go koni, might i add, maybe going to koni ground control sleeves be the better alternative? many swear by the kono+GC combo in the states, i guess what im getting to is, it has what u need, with the added benefit of full coilover adjustable functions, dampers and ride height control yet still retain its stock strut look/function.

as far as shock dynos go, 9 outta 10, including me would have zero clue on it lol.... but from my understanding, shockers should be tailored to the roads u drive on....

Thanks for the heads up, I haven't done any research on that - what are koni ground control sleeves?

[Mikecivic78]

plenty of good coilovers for daily duties that are comfortable
just have to ask people what works
just get teins ss if you want a soft coilover for the street
pretty much the same spring rating as any lower spring

shock and spring combo's can also be un-comfortable with the bouncing effect with mis-matched set ups

true about the mis-matched setups. That's why Konis are good as they are damper adjustable. If I harden dampening too much I get this bouncing.

I haven't tried Tein SSs. I wonder how they compare to the Eibachs. I would say that Eibachs would be better as comfort/handling compromise, but I would like to have height adjustability. Looking back now, I should have got Ground Control for the Konis.

[Alvis]

^^ what's ground control?

[Mikecivic78]

^^ what's ground control?

people refer them as GCs. They are coilover sleeves. They are made to be mated with Koni Yellows. Google them, there's a few DIYs with them in them. Good bit of kit them.

[trism]

They are a brand. They make extended top hats and coilover sleeve kits

[Mikecivic78]

GC coilover springs for EK from a place in the US called Kuruma Motoring. This is where I bought my Konis from.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/GROUND-CO...item2c5d19624d

I might look into these in the future