Rear sway bar on EK1 - spin out/ going to far?

[Alvis]

Hi guys,

I'm considering a rear sway bar on my EK1 sedan, however I was reading this article below which got me a little worried.

Has anyone experienced a spin out by fitting a thicker rear sway bar?

Here is the article below:


Going Too far?

Most manufacturers of front-wheel drive cars keep the rear roll stiffness fairly soft. But if stiff rear sway bars are good for handling, why do they do this?

Too stiff a rear bar in a front-wheel drive will result in a much higher likelihood of a spin if you lift-off mid-corner. A soft rear bar also results in plenty of understeer – something which is good for safety in the averagely-driven commuter car. However, if you don’t go to extremes, it’s quite possible to gain better turn-in and much improved mid-corner balance with a bigger rear bar. (Or the installation of one where none previously existed!) You’ll also find that the car can be much better throttle-steered – back-off the throttle a little and the rear will come out gradually; get back on the power and the car will follow the cornering line.

The acid test is cornering on a wet road with a load in the back – you don’t want the rear so stiff that a slight throttle lift will cause the car to spin. But to get this effect in an otherwise standard car, you usually have to make a radical difference to rear sway bar size.

Note that a front-wheel drive with an over-stiff rear sway bar (or more correctly, too high a total rear roll stiffness) will feel great up to 8/10ths – turn-in will be sharp and the car will sit flat. But go that extra step and you can be bitten.

[kriZy]

I've upgraded from ek4 rear sway bar to ek9 rear sway bar.. i can't remember how much mm difference they are but ek9 is obviously bigger and never came close to spinning out on spirited mountain drives.

[Alvis]

ok sure, I was getting worried when I read that!

How about in the wet? Oh, and I saw your thread last night where you installed the ASR brace!

Is it worth the improvement going to EK9? I mean, I have no rsb on my EK1 atm... just hope the change isn't 'too' drastic...?

[mugen_ctr]

em1/ek4 rear 14mm vs ek9 22mm... also consider the front swaybar as well... i think most ek/ej run a 22mm up front, an general rule of thumb is to have more under steer than over steer, so really u would need atleast a Em1/ek4 26mm front swaybar if u were going to run a ek9 rear swaybar if u were worried about over steer, but im a firm believer that if u do spin out, u obviously havent learnt how to drive the car...

Im thinking of going a em1 front sway bar since i already have the 14mm rear in place, but i need more info on doing the swap, as both ej8 and em1 use a different style of endlinks on the fronts so yeah....

Go the 14mm rear sway bar, for the time being an save the cash for a asr+22mm later on, dont hold out on this, swaybars make a big difference to how any vehicles handle

Ive also got a 20mm whiteline rear swaybar that ive yet to fit, so im pretty keen on seeing how this will pair up with the ej8 22mm front sway

[Alvis]

Yeh, you're spot on - 22mm fsb on my EK1

I have no sway bar on the rear though - as opposed to EM1/EK4 which have 14mm on rear (still quite small compared to 22mm).

I've read you actually have to factor the sway bar effect to the power of 4:

For example, a sway bar might have a diameter of 22mm and you are considering changing it for one which is 26mm in diameter. 224 (22 x 22 x 22 x 22) give a stiffness factor of 234,256 units. The second bar’s stiffness is 264 which is 456,976. Divide one by the other and you can see that the second bar’s stiffness is almost twice (1.95 times) as high.
Source: http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Rear-...9/article.html


So, based on this, this is why I'm a little worried as to how it will handle by making such a drastic change to the setup of the car given it has no rear sway bar to start with! Help yikes!

[Riced_Civic]

i up graded my Ek1 to Ek9 rear and ek4 front they feel awesome. both are 22mm and i feel that i get more oversteer entering a corner but thats what i prefer when at the track.

imo if u dont want oversteer and want some thing more understeer get the Em1 rear sway bar. if u can live with the oversteer get the Ek9.

also you shouldnt be getting oversteer or understeer on the streets if u drive sensible, so it shouldnt be a problem with the Ek9 rsb, lols

[Alvis]

Thanks for the advice Riced_Civic and mugen_ctr

I don't do track work, so on the street it sounds like it would be fine... sometimes i like to take it for a spirited drive through some corners, so just don't want to change the car setup and regret it, but that gives me some more confidence knowing you've done something similar and are happy with your set up

So if I go EK4 on rear - then no need for ASR brace correct?

[mugen_ctr]

yeap, im running one atm, 14mm wont snap the rear subframe at all..... ek4/em1 are the same as any ek/ej, all same chassis, its only ek9 that has had the structural re-enforcement done to it, which has a thicker subframe to support 22mm or larger rear swaybars.... I personally think honda cheaped out heaps on the ek... the only thing really worth mentioning besides the engines is really the suspension given double wishbone design... other than that, u need quite a bit of mods to make it keep up with competitors

And if u do run ASR kit, u cant run a 14mm, as the brackets are too small as well as the bushes, as there only designed to run anything with 20mm or higher if im not mistaken

[Alvis]

Thanks man, appreciate it

Yeh, that's not the first time I've heard that - Honda were doing a fair bit of cost cutting during the late 90s and the EK was one of them. But at the time, I don't think there was any other manufacturer making an engine like the b-series with such a high output - it's only today 14 years on that the competition has caught up - not the fact Honda has been left behind IMO

But it's interesting to note that the other day I was reading an article that Honda actually made a loss on every Integra Type R they sold in the US (not sure about elsewhere). Honda believed it was so important for the image of the brand, which I agree with being in marketing, to have the Type R in their product range that they accepted they would make a loss on each unit sold (ie hand polishing the ports in the early models, tightening with a micrometer was all done by hand when they made the Integra at the start etc... after that they went to specialist machines).

I tell you what, no talk of that going on these days... but goes to show companies weren't ruled by bean counters like they are these days and they actually made decent cars.. well the R anyway ... and bits of the EK (sussy and engine lol) - the rest you had to rely on aftermarket Mugen, Spoon etc - so they would be happy LOL

So, I guess a 14mm rsb would be something I would have to order through Honda right if I go down that path?

And if so, do you just get the bar or is there any bushes with it normally you have to install as well?

[zeus_civic]

I have the 14mm RSB on my EK sedan. The change in handling wasn't drastic but the understeer was definitely reduced.

Just make sure the bar comes with the end links and D-brackets so you don't have to look for them separately if you buying 2nd hand.

[Alvis]

I have the 14mm RSB on my EK sedan. The change in handling wasn't drastic but the understeer was definitely reduced.

Just make sure the bar comes with the end links and D-brackets so you don't have to look for them separately if you buying 2nd hand.

Yah, another EK1 sedan lol

In your opinion - would you recommend the upgrade to 14mm as worthwhile or are you now thinking of going to a thicker bar?

[Alvis]

Ok, just been doing some more research and was hoping someone can confirm the below.

Scenario: If I go to a CTR rsb and want to maintain a 'balance' in the set-up of the car (ie not too much understeer and not too much oversteer) this would essentially mean I would have to upgrade to a CTR fsb. SO, given this scenario is the below correct in that in order to fit a CTR fsb I would also have to change the LCA's and front fork? QUOTE BELOW:

The Civic Type R and Civic Si front sway bars only work with the Civic Type R or Si LCAs. The LCA are thicker than all other EK Civic LCAs at the strut fork, so the fork will also need to be changed out.

Source: http://www.jdmuniverse.com/forums/view_ekswaybars.html

Interested to know your thoughts on this one...