New 2012 Accord Euro from $29900 driveaway...

**natnat** · 31-08-2011 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by DanGamage

A Passat is not a performance car. ........

the above oil consumption stuff was related to the performance cars driven hard and on track and twisties.

i don't think regular non performance Passat / Jetta buyers take their cars to such extreme.

i'm fully aware the F1 and hybrid stuffs Honda has been involved in.. i've owned 3 Honda cars and worked for a Honda dealership before.

the simple engineering i referred to was related to the electronic connections.

**DanGamage** · 31-08-2011 11:51 AM

Amen to that!

Back on topic, I dhave some bias...but I will stick to my Hondas. I only know two people with VW's one rattles like hell and the other is brand spanking new ~1 week, so we'll see what happens there. The worse that I have experienced in my 3 generations of hondas (1xcivic, 2xeuros & Honda mower, outboard and generator) is a torn speaker on my CU2 (which I believe I caused...by pumping the volume up too high on a cold start). I am not going to have a wank over, base my decision on or justify my purchase based how much R&D a company sinks into their product or what CAN system/diag system...as long as I am happy with the product, that is all that matters.

**Fredoops** · 31-08-2011 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by DanGamage

A Passat is not a performance car. So why would a passat need more attention than a Euro? That is a major drawback, if you think about the market segment.

He's talking about engine performance vs displacement.

On a side note, I have worked at Robert Bosch...who do a lot of work for VAG and some work for Honda. The engineers hated doing work for the Japanese (Honda in particular) because of how anal/tight they are and the questions/amount of info they ask for, complete opposite for locals (GMH, FoMoCo) though

Germans arent any better.

You make it out like Honda do not invest in R&D and put a car together with 'simple' engineering (this is hilarious). Also you are comparing the R&D of the VAG group to Honda.
Just off the top of my head..
- FCX Clarity
- F1
- Hybrid tech?
Of course all of the above involves no R&D and is simple engineering. I might enter a car into 2012 F1 Season next year..

Honda only supplies F1 engines, rest was outsourced.

We're talking about tech applied to mass market cars, theres no point talking about concept tech thats not applied to mass market or added to the corporate part-bin (no, FCX and it's lease program dont count).

Honda's IMA (Hybrid tech) while commendable, is one of the less efficient systems around, especially compared to the Toyota HSD or GM/Chrysler GHC

Regardless of all the robo-cop rubbish Honda put on their website, it doesnt matter if the company makes God-damn space shuttles, if its not (or cant be) applied to the mass market for consumers it means nothing.

The majority of cars (for all manufacturers) are made from the corporate part-bin and it's tech content is comparitively low, the current K-series engine (the bread and butter 4-cyl engine) is overdue for replacement. The AVTEC program(replacement for i-VTEC) was shelved back in 2007 (Fiat multi-air now passed AVTEC in this field). Insight hybrid was a disappointment, CR-Z was anything but 'sporty'. The i-DTEC n-series turbo engine is behind in both effiencity and power compared to the european rivals.

What do they have right now to apply to mass market (par the parallel hybrid system) models thats new or evolutionary?

The european emission standards is a big issue for Honda, the i-DTEC engine aint gonna do.

A bit unfair comparing the volumetric efficiency of a FI car to NA car isnt it?

Why not? With the way emission/CO2/fuel consumption standards going, most manufacturers will need to go the FI path.

**DanGamage** · 31-08-2011 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Fredoops

He's talking about engine performance vs displacement.

If I am not mistaken, he said that VW have more problems typically for owners who do not know much about their cars...my old man has a CL9, knows nothing about cars...hasnt even checked the oil. Just gets it serviced.

Never mentioned performance vs displacement??!?!/

Originally Posted by Fredoops

Honda only supplies F1 engines, rest was outsourced.

We're talking about tech applied to mass market cars, theres no point talking about concept tech thats not applied to mass market or added to the corporate part-bin (no, FCX and it's lease program dont count).

Honda's IMA (Hybrid tech) while commendable, is one of the less efficient systems around, especially compared to the Toyota HSD or GM/Chrysler GHC

Hang on, this might be a hard concept to grasp, but we are talking about research and development. The R&D conducted in the past few years is filtering into cars now. The big R&D projects being done now will be seen in cars in the future. For example, I'd hazard to guess that KERS or similar will be implemented in cars in the future. R&D projects that are being worked on now, we may/may not see in the future. I was talking about R&D, so yes there is a point talking about concept tech, that does not cater to the mass market...natnat seemed to make out (maybe unintentionally) that VW spend $$ on R&D and Honda do simple engineering. So why come in and say that there is no point talking about concept tech, when we are debating 'concept tech'

Edit-Don't get me started on Honda's F1 History. Yes Honda made the engines and the rest was outsourced duh! That has been common practice with Mercedes, BMW, Renault etc. F1 = R&D, simple as that...unless you are Toyota (just a joke)

Why not? With the way emission/CO2/fuel consumption standards going, most manufacturers will need to go the FI path.

Yes I agree with natnat there, he did raise a good point. But my point being that FI is always going increase volumetric efficiency, but can see how it is a flawed argument.

**aaronng** · 31-08-2011 01:10 PM

Honda was known as a company that prided itself on innovation to overcome problems. The problem is that to survive in today's economy without much volume (they don't do much fleet car business in Aus for example), they need to reduce operating costs and focus on products that people will buy in volume in exchange for less investment into R&D. It is not a bad thing as I would rather see Honda still exist as a company rather than to go the way of Saab. Unfortunately for enthusiasts, it means that the main thing that drew us to purchasing a Honda (the engineering innovation) is now disappearing/diluting.

**boleh** · 31-08-2011 06:59 PM

No one is immuned to changing global circumstances, which is why even porsche is building suvs these days. Ferrari is also considering a hybrid. And who would have thought just 5 yrs ago that toyota will have a proper sports car in production next year. Its all abt capturing a wider audience. Competition will only get harder and everyone is trying thngs they have never done before to stay alive. Honda the way i ser it... Not only did they stop doing the thing they do best, but they also did not explore new things

**tron07** · 31-08-2011 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by natnat

performance cars just need a bit more attention..

my GTI only chews oil on track when driven at oil temp of 135 degrees for 15 mnts (and yes it has stock OIL temp display) , on normal daily drive it does not chews any oil.

a Mazda RX8 chews oil all the time.

i think some WRXs do chew oil too.

it's the little price to pay for high performance..

but could be just those cars above..

dunno about heavily tuned STI's / EVO's that do 250-400kw at the wheel. you can just ask them if they need to check their engine frequently..

a stock bone K24A does not need any attention, open the bonnet every 6 months is just fine.

the mk6 golf 118tsi pumps the same amount of torque, 230nm, as the K24A in the CU2.

You mention "especially for owners who don't know much about cars...."

I doubt people who drive performance cars dont know about oil check or which fuel to use.

**antony** · 31-08-2011 07:15 PM

I know nothing about cars,have owned 4 VWs,and now a Honda.

As a buyer,I think its the little things that count,eg the Euros centre console is neatly covered up.

The previous Jetta was also very neat,in that the centre drinks holder slid opened and closed,and even had a bottle opener with the VW logo on it,which was such a great idea.

The all new Jetta has 2 blank spaces,where you put your bottles into.

Looks unfinished,and very disapointing.

**I CU2** · 31-08-2011 08:59 PM

Ya'll calm down. You can't have a VW vs Honda fight on a Honda forum, all your opinions are biased.

The peeps at the Toyota forum call us Euro owners lil rice rice boys who think they'll win all the time cause we looking for sick street cred.

**antony** · 31-08-2011 09:26 PM

I am a VW person also,as have bought 4 new VWs over the years,and have persuaded many freinds and family members to buy VW,but think I am becomming more of a Honda person every day,as am so impressed with my Euro every single day.
Bur will visit a VW dealership on Monday...just for fun.

**Fredoops** · 31-08-2011 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by I CU2

Ya'll calm down. You can't have a VW vs Honda fight on a Honda forum, all your opinions are biased.

The peeps at the Toyota forum call us Euro owners lil rice rice boys who think they'll win all the time cause we looking for sick street cred.

They ARE right tho in some respect... Theres a song about us....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbOlXjJb6Sc

That aside, I reckon the Jetta wont take sales of the euro... much, it will however make the Civic Sport and Mazda 6/3 look overpriced