200fwkw from K24/20 - Possible?

[fatboyz39]

Add a blower on it. 200kw will be a breeze .

[TODA AU]

gat deym. im 99% sold on 70mm tb and rrc/rsp now.
70mm only at opening right? bore goes down to oem size at butterfly plate.

dyno dynamics > butt dyno

My take on the OEM maniolds is as follows (based on tuned cars)
RSP = Exellent low end & exellent mid range (Brutal acceleration off the line)
RBC = exellent mid range & good top end (best bang for bucks)
RRC = Good mid range & exellent top end (best peak power)
ISP manifold (if you can get one) kind matches the best of both the RSP & RBC (at a price)

& bigger than 70mm only seems pay off with engines over 2.4L in capacity
Air speed is critical though & there is a lot of power to be won or lost in intake length/diameter leading to the throttle/plenum

[mocchi]

My take on the OEM maniolds is as follows (based on tuned cars)
RSP = Exellent low end & exellent mid range (Brutal acceleration off the line)
RBC = exellent mid range & good top end (best bang for bucks)
RRC = Good mid range & exellent top end (best peak power)
ISP manifold (if you can get one) kind matches the best of both the RSP & RBC (at a price)

& bigger than 70mm only seems pay off with engines over 2.4L in capacity
Air speed is critical though & there is a lot of power to be won or lost in intake length/diameter leading to the throttle/plenum

thanks alot for the input adrian, many K series enthusiast will benefit from this.
i agree with rbc with bang for buck, rsp is way too expensive right now.

spoon 70mm tb looks promising with their 'venturi' effect design. 70mm opening, tapers down and gets wider again at IM side.
http://www.icbmotorsport.com/spkthbo.html

devil is in details, cant agree more.

[TODA AU]

If you're going to use a JDM throttle (TODA, SPOON, J's racing etc)
& fit it to an RSP, RBC or RRC,
Be sure to buy the CL7 throttle (RBC), not the DC5R one (for PRB/PRC)
Then there is no need for an adaptor plate & the IACV plug is imboard away from the radiator giving more clearence.

[spetz]

My take on the OEM maniolds is as follows (based on tuned cars)
RSP = Exellent low end & exellent mid range (Brutal acceleration off the line)
RBC = exellent mid range & good top end (best bang for bucks)
RRC = Good mid range & exellent top end (best peak power)
ISP manifold (if you can get one) kind matches the best of both the RSP & RBC (at a price)

& bigger than 70mm only seems pay off with engines over 2.4L in capacity
Air speed is critical though & there is a lot of power to be won or lost in intake length/diameter leading to the throttle/plenum

Adrian, what makes the RRC manifold make so much more power?
And is there a hard formula behind it all, or is it trial and error, in the sense of these companies building one?

[fatboyz39]

RRC +1

RRC has a slightly larger plenum. Runners 1 and 2 are slightly bigger then RBC. Thats what i can see when placing RBC and RRC next to each other.

[OMG.JAI xD]

Put 20" wheels with a SUV profile.
Easy 200kw atw.

At the wheel figures are dyno dependant.
My old prelude ran a 180 something on toda's dyno.
i ran it on a mainline dyno (still drive on) and it made 200kw.
Then put type S wheels on which increased the rolling diameter, and made 210kw.

When it comes to tuning its really comes down to how wide the powerband is and how much torque it produces between that power band.
A motorbike engine will have 100kw but f ck all torque. Put that 100kw engine in a car and the thing will go no where. (suzuki cappucinno does not count).

Simple answer to OP's question. Is, yes it is definately possible.
At the wheel, kilowatt figures are just bragging rights or selling points. ie. " New honda accord fitted with a 148kw engine ". Well I work for Audi, and a 2.0L TFSI with 125kw and mated to a 7 speed s tronic will eat the accord alive. And its a heavier car.

Also, saying " i have a 200kw n/a k20 " is more appealing to " I have a 265Nm n/a K20 ".

Power is not the key to everything. All about balance - Keiichi tsuchiya.

[Chr1s]

When it comes to tuning its really comes down to how wide the powerband is and how much torque it produces between that power band.
A motorbike engine will have 100kw but f ck all torque. Put that 100kw engine in a car and the thing will go no where. (suzuki cappucinno does not count).

I think you misunderstood the point of gearing... we're talking purely about engines here, I can put 100kw engine in an EG civic, gear it up correctly and it could blow the doors off a 150kw civic with shit gearing.

Torque does matter, but are they independent? No. If you want big power for a limited displacement, you need to rev...(look at f1)

HP = Torque * RPM / 5252

You can only do so much to gain torque due to the geometric constraints of the bottom end. So next viable option is to increase RPM, of course at the nerve of valvetrain and important balancing..,

It's pretty clear and Adrian has said it thousands of times already in this thread, most of you who haven't done this before (including myself) would have to spend thousands to get this right and actually put the number down of the theoretical maximum, the 213kW or whatever number I mentioned earlier is based of purely 100% VE and very low losses (35% M.E. is pretty much F1 standard) which means the engine is inhaling as much air as it can theoretically fit in the cylinder (ignoring ram charge effects which can potentially boost the VE to 107% etc..) and defining a certain fuel ratio for the given amount of air - hence power produced. You cannot go against that theory, it's physics..it's up to you to use your brain and understand that there is efficiency losses between manifolds, heads, supportive breathing mods, balancing, etc so that actual theoretical limit, drops - until you have developed an engine that overcomes all those little losses where you can see why I said it would cost thousands...

Do what's been done and tested, go off that.. and again - details...

It might be worth your time paying for consultation from someone who has done this before who can pretty much give you a list of what to head towards - but don't expect a silver platter.


/boffin

[Snoop_gee]

My take on the OEM maniolds is as follows (based on tuned cars)
RSP = Exellent low end & exellent mid range (Brutal acceleration off the line)
RBC = exellent mid range & good top end (best bang for bucks)
RRC = Good mid range & exellent top end (best peak power)
ISP manifold (if you can get one) kind matches the best of both the RSP & RBC (at a price)

& bigger than 70mm only seems pay off with engines over 2.4L in capacity
Air speed is critical though & there is a lot of power to be won or lost in intake length/diameter leading to the throttle/plenum

very clear consise info.
Thanks for that.

I have not changed much with the intake manifold or throttle body.
All this time i thought getting the 74mm skunk2 throttlebody and RBC was the path i was gonna take.
So it seems now the RSP would be something that i would like.
Whats the price of RSP cause already Mocchi is saying its expensive.

[trism]

So 150-160 n/a fwkw out of a k24 would be easy with not much more than headers/exhaust, 70mm throttle body, and a tune?

[mocchi]

So 150-160 n/a fwkw out of a k24 would be easy with not much more than headers/exhaust, 70mm throttle body, and a tune?

i think 150fwkw is k24a3 stock.
looking at cammed motor dyno thread, aarong's euro made 110-120kwatw?

rsp im is $500+usd at least, i know some ppl selling for $800+usd new. some guy in US was selling for 2g? lol.
a member here was parting out and he wanted $600-700aud but that was already modified so cant fit k24.
pretty much double price of rbc. please note im comparing US prices, not local honda au or australia rrp prices.

[Benson]

So 150-160 n/a fwkw out of a k24 would be easy with not much more than headers/exhaust, 70mm throttle body, and a tune?

You might need a set of cams to get you across the line