'Lift-off Oversteer' and prevention / curing

[madapo]

Okay guys, i know there has probably been a few similar threads, but i want this one to be updated with the most recent experiences and opinions.

1. Alot of people point the finger at the ap1 and not the ap2. What are your experiences?
2. What are the benefits of VSA, Good tyres on the rear, rear bumpsteer kit etc etc?
3. When the car is unsettled, would pedal down and counter steer be the best way to cure it or just foot down on the 'clutch brake'..?
4. This question is for those who previously had FWD. Do you find yourself exponentially going through liftoff due to old FWD habits?

[Hasbeen]

This could be an interesting topic, but to avoid talking at cross purposes, would you please qualify the subject.

I have never experienced lift off oversteer in a rear wheel drive vehicle. This excepted by a couple of rather nasty Ferraris I raced some years back, that had lift off rear end breakaway, if you turned in too soon after you lifted off the brakes, not the power.

Are we talking about the car traveling fast, [say over 60MPH], & at high cornering loads, say above 8 tenths? Or are we talking about slower suburban speeds, at lower cornering loads, & involving power sliding the rear, as in the newish sports of drifting & burnouts. What happens when you lift off in the latter instance is a mystery to me, as the only time I indulge in such activities is in my old ute, down the bottom paddock, where there is nothing to hit, particularly pedestrians.

I would definitely advise against counter steering, or applying opposite lock as we say in Oz, as it is just this practise by drivers used to less high performance RWD, or FWD, that has killed so many of our cars. Where a clumsy 60s Mustang or Jaguar would respond nicely to this technique, modern high performance cars will flick back, & disappear into the scenery backwards, or crash backwards into any solid object preventing them joining the scenery, if the driver was any where near the limit.

Years of racing formula racing cars taught me that you only take off a little lock, & apply light to moderate power, never apply opposite lock, while the situation is savable. When you have actually lost the thing, & are approaching right angles to your desired direction of travel, by all means apply your counter steering, but definitely only after you have locked all 4 wheels. The car will become quite docile, reasonably stable, & slide to a halt quite quickly.

On the track I have avoided other peoples accidents with this technique a number of times. Just what you should do in a car which is ABS equipped I'm damned if I know. Fortunately I have not experienced this problem myself, but I fear all you can do is take your hands off the wheel, & prepare for a loud noise, accompanied by a sudden stop.

I look forward to hearing what others have done, which was successful, & that which was not such a good idea.

[madapo]

I have provided a few examples of what i am talking about. From my understanding, when the person lifts off the gas while in a corner at higher speeds than usual pushing the usual limit, the weight shifts from the rear to the front, thus causing a weightlessness in the rear which then causes the rear to slide out. Correct me if i am wrong, you seem like you've had some great driving experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i57ZP4XL6sQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdM9s5w4-5M

[beanz]

Are you coming at this topic from a racing/performance or defensive driving perspective?

[DreadAngel]

Okay guys, i know there has probably been a few similar threads, but i want this one to be updated with the most recent experiences and opinions.

1. Alot of people point the finger at the ap1 and not the ap2. What are your experiences?
2. What are the benefits of VSA, Good tyres on the rear, rear bumpsteer kit etc etc?
3. When the car is unsettled, would pedal down and counter steer be the best way to cure it or just foot down on the 'clutch brake'..?
4. This question is for those who previously had FWD. Do you find yourself exponentially going through liftoff due to old FWD habits?

@1. - You'll find that Honda designed and calibrated the suspension geometry in the AP1 to minimise 'nose diving' and sharpen the handling to the edge but the flipside was Honda made the AP1 a very twitchy and nervous car especially in adverse conditions. AP2 Honda recalibrated it to amend these issues.
@2. VSA isn't available on the S2000 unless I missed a couple of dials? o.O I think you're talking about stabilising the AP1? Good rim and tyres choice are a good start, more and better contact with the road is a must. High quality supple dampers to allow the S2000 to soak up the bumps rather that bounce off them, suspension geometry should also be altered to allow for maximise tyre contact under all conditions.

[Hasbeen]

Madapo, driving is all about feel, & it is very difficult to put this into words. Sometimes others dont actually hear what we are saying, & sometimes we are actually kidding ourselves, & don't really know what we do, or can't put it into words.

A little story to explain. I was in the original Holden Dealers Team, that ran the Monaros at Bathurst in 68. I spent some time at the GM test facility, Lang Lang, doing suspension tuning on the things before release. Remember those 500s were in stock standard ex factory cars, blueprinted sure, but stock.

We did a lot of laps of their road test circuit, tuning springs, shocks & brakes, all we could change at that late stage, before they went to production.. The things were brilliant, just as their staff people had set them up. We did get a few seconds of their lap times, but nothing like what you would expect.

I was talking to one of the expats, a top Le Mans driver back to drive with us in the race, & told him he would love how you could set it up to understeer, or oversteer into any corner, at will. He asked how. After much talking, he looked at me with a smile & said, "you have just told me to do exactly the same thing to set up under or over steer". "That's OK, I have the same trouble telling people how to do something". "It's our hands & feet that know how to do it, not our brain". When I thought about it he was dead right.I could do it, but not tell you how I did it.

But here goes. In your clips its is a pity we can't see what happens with the wheel. In your first clip the driver was on the over run, so no "lift off" effect & I reckon he was planning to use a bit of road over the centre line. When he saw the oncoming car he had to tighten up. He unbalanced the car, & the tail drifted a little. It may not have happened if he could have applied a little throttle, but he was already a bit quick, so couldn't. I don't think he applied opposite lock, just eased the lock, as there was no kick back.

In the second instance the driver was on a trailing/holding throttle. He did lift off as soon as he lost the tail, as almost all of us do in such a situation, & this helped him get the thing back. He obviously applied opposite lock, & too much of it, which is why the car flicked back the other way. However he is very good, or that flick back would have ended up with another S2000 exiting life backwards to the left, just past the end of that safety fence. That was a pretty nervous laugh after he caught the kick back. That sort of thing was pretty easy to handle in an MG B, or an E type Jag, but requires more skill, reflexes & control in an S2000 or a Porsche today.

When ever I got into trouble on quick stuff, [open wheelers] I am pretty sure I lifted off completely. This is distinct from where a negative camber exit meant the tail was going to go wandering, & was expected, when I would usually hold full throttle without trouble, with just a reduction of steering lock.

[aozora]

Okay guys, i know there has probably been a few similar threads, but i want this one to be updated with the most recent experiences and opinions.

1. Alot of people point the finger at the ap1 and not the ap2. What are your experiences?
2. What are the benefits of VSA, Good tyres on the rear, rear bumpsteer kit etc etc?
3. When the car is unsettled, would pedal down and counter steer be the best way to cure it or just foot down on the 'clutch brake'..?
4. This question is for those who previously had FWD. Do you find yourself exponentially going through liftoff due to old FWD habits?

To clarify... lift-off oversteer is different to bumpsteer and like Hasbeen, I've never felt it either in a RWD. With that out of the way...
1. Apparently the rear toe curve on the AP1 is much more aggressive than the AP2, meaning that the suspension geometry changes more drastically which can unsettle the rear. Some people actually like it that way, because it makes the rear feel more responsive. There are toe arm anti bumpsteer kits for the AP1 that correct it to a degree but your ride height is a factor so simply slapping any kit on, isn't going to help.
2. You should have good tyres all around period. If you skimp out on tyres, you're only asking for some bad to happen if you don't know what you're doing. VSA I've never driven with it but am not a fan of electronic assistance anyway which is why I chose the S2000 in the first place
3 and 4. It sounds to me like you're not all that experienced with driving RWD. In my opinion, and something I can't encourage enough - take it easy but drive as much as you can to familiarise yourself. Try taking up an Advanced Driving course or try your hand at a skidpan day. And like Hasbeen said... it's all about feel, the more you practise something - the better you'll get at it.

And even then, there's some things that will catch you off guard...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...XFJajC4#t=354s
I'm still not sure what happened 100%. Somebody told me there was dirt on the track from a previous off... I was suspecting I had overheated the rear tyres... or my angle/accel timing was wrong... Hasbeen?? Haha

[connorling]

i drove my civic a lot before i got my S2000, and like you said, i get used to driving FWD and when i take my s2000 on the hill, i tend to lift off my gas halfway thru the corner, and unsettle the car.

something u have to get used to it.

a good set of tyres and suspension set up will help you on the oversteer issue.
now my S2000 tend to understeer more, making it safer.

when u get it sideway, the last think u want is to clutch in and brake, most likely u will lock up and spin, happen to me on the track and spun out.

either keep the power and slide out the corner, point the steering wheel the direction u want it to go, or let go and gas and counter steer it.

[madapo]

@beans i'm coming up at a more performance/racing perspective.
@dreadangel best motoring international mentions that, but they never really take it into depth so i still wanted the opinions, thanks.
@hasbeen i believe you are right. I was up in the mountains yesterday with a RWD quad to get a feel of this in gravel (lower traction). Normally i wouldn't go faster than 80kph but i saw my self in 6th gear top speed braking last second to take sharp turns, and not knowing what i did, i took them really good. At times i was drifting while having 2 side wheels in the air, but i was still taking the corner and powering before i could even exit and i just kept getting faster and better. Like your guy said, I realised that having the theory and logic is great, but after a while it just comes down to what your body does and half of the time it feels like a natural instinct. I saw your bio 27,500Km s2k. That must have cost a fortune, coz that's definnitely a rare buy. Great stuff!

@aozora yes you're right. I'm going to go for the ap2, but worst case if i end up with an ap1 i'll just get the anti bumpsteer kit, with a good setup and take it slow until i get used to it. I've seen photos of your s2k before, and loved it. Keep up the good work

In terms of the video, i don't believe you have overused the tyres coz the previous turns were great. Infact if that was the case, you should have lost it in the previous turn. It probably was just some debris or a fluid leak of some sort. That's my opinion.