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 Originally Posted by Whiteline
We have tried to explain the benefits of using bigger sway bars here and in other threads and forums, but it seems the information is not being acknowledged.
sorry, but the information has been 'acknowledged', however, you really have failed to prove the benefits of your position.
 B20VTEC - since 2002
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that said, i am getting a set of the 61180065 XRD springs to put on the rear of my car and move the 8k springs to the front.
plus getting 25mm front sway bar.
and moving the 22mm rear bar to full stiff position...
just so i have tried it out myself to compare pros/cons
B20VTEC - since 2002
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Originally Posted by tinkerbell
sorry, but the information has been 'acknowledged', however, you really have failed to prove the benefits of your position.
No, I am sorry. I think you have failed to understand this issuue. Let me try again.
Hypothetically.....
If for a given standard tyre, we need a certain amount of roll resistance, let's give it a value of 10 units.
These 10 units of roll resistance can be acheived by using either a spring, a sway bar or a combination of both.
Let's assume that the factory suspension has 7 units of spring roll resistance and 3 units of sway bar roll resistance.
Now, the car is fitted with a semi-slick tyre (more grip), which requires a higher value of (total) roll resistance. Let's assume this to be 14 units.
This can be acheived by either;
Case #1;
spring roll resistance of 11 units + sway bar roll resistance of 3 units = 14 units of total roll resistance
Case #2;
spring roll resistance of 9 units + sway bar roll resistance of 5 units = 14 units of total roll resistance
I think it is very clear which is a better combination.
Let us know if it's still unclear or you do not agree.
Regards,
Wojtek.
Whiteline Automotive.
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Originally Posted by Whiteline
euGeR,
Thanks for your data so far. In order for me to make some sence, could you please provide shock valving graphs, tyre temperatures, ride heights (absolute ride height, measured from centre of wheel to guard), full wheel alignment settings at the very least.
Eitherway...
I understand that you have not fitted uprated sway bars with any of your suspension kits. Can I ask for your reasons for not using bigger sway bars?
We have tried to explain the benefits of using bigger sway bars here and in other threads and forums, but it seems the information is not being acknowledged.
Could you explain the reasons for not using bigger sway bars please?
Component failure is not a unique problem to a Honda. Other cars break mounts, brackets, links, etc... as well. We provide solutions where required.
Regards,
Wojtek.
Whiteline Automotive
Hi Wojtek,
Unfortunately I don't have the old shock dyno graphs (even though I would like to get one done to have some piece of mind that everything is in order), but the inconvenience of pulling the coil overs off and taking them for a dyno (not to mention the cost) is not viable
The best I could give you is the ride heights and wheel alignment's.
You are welcome to organise a test day for us to attend and test. I'll be happy to let anyone who can heel toe drove my car at wakefield! (my clutch doesn't like anyone who cannot heel toe - whiteline staff that is - no joy riders  ).
As for Sways, with the current setup, I don't feel a need for them, as I feel that I don't have all that much roll. I considered them prior, but opted for the higher rate springs and shocks.
I guess it came down to "understanding" the effects and feel, and how can it be tuned further.
As I understood it, to rectify roll when using a higher grip tyre, you could
a. upgrade sways - no sacrifice to ride comfort
b. go with stiffer shock/spring set up - sacrifice to ride comfort but improve weight transfer
My previous experience with moving up spring/shock rates was positive so I guess I just tried it again!
We hobbyists, don't have to much of a budget to try alot of things and sometimes opt for the safer route 
Last edited by euGeR; 24-06-2005 at 03:15 PM.
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your opinion that 'it is very clear which is better' is the issue.
ie it is NOT very clear WHY it is better.
why is sway bar roll control better than spring roll control?????
why is it 'clearly better'????
B20VTEC - since 2002
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would there be a difference in the stroke of the shock?
example -
Case #1
have less stroke/ suspension travel?
Case #2
More stroke or suspension travel required?
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nah, the premise is based on rates only.
and the premise, although glossed over, is that:
In which case, we can ask the question what is the ideal spring rate needed for “warp” modes? Many, including Whiteline will argue that the theoretical ideal rate is effectively zero, none, zilch!
http://www.suspensionparts.info/show...=&threadid=272
so on this basis, WL, amongst others, believe that lowest spring rates (ie close to zero) are best to overcome the issue of individual changes in road surface creating loss of traction at that wheel.
see:
Roll is best controlled by swaybars. Why not springs, you ask? Consider what happens when the car is loaded into a corner in roll and one or both of the loaded wheels encounter a change in road surface through a warp mode? Remembering the law of equal and opposite reactions, a loaded outside front wheel encountering a bump will encounter a significant rate through the pre-compressed spring (car is loaded in corner) resulting in the spring passing on the load to the body that will move away from the road. Result? Lost contact, even if only for a moment but potentially disastrous from a handling point of view when you consider its doing a great deal of the cornering work at the time.
what is not mentioned is that an anti-sway bar not only transfers individual changes in the road surface to both wheels attached to the anti-sway bar, but compounding this is that the movement across the chassis of the single irregularity might lead to a doubling up of the effect fo the irregualrity - on the opposite side of the chassis.
is this not as "potentially disastrous from a handling point of view"?
this is one often cited reason for 'balance' of anti-sway bars with spring rates.
quite the opposite of, as WL cites, a dominance of sway bar rate over spring rate.
still - the proof will be in the pudding...
i am getting a set of 6k springs for my car, to replace the 8k rears, and moving the 8k rears to the front, replacing the 12k fronts... adding a 25mm front anti-sway bar and moving the rear anti-sway bar to stiffest setting...
main reason - better street driving comfort
B20VTEC - since 2002
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Originally Posted by tinkerbell
your opinion that 'it is very clear which is better' is the issue.
ie it is NOT very clear WHY it is better.
why is sway bar roll control better than spring roll control?????
why is it 'clearly better'????
...
Hi Everyone,
tinkerbell,
It seems that you are seeing this as black and white, i.e.; extremely high spring rates with standard sway bars, or zero spring rates with massive sway bars.
Some of our (WL) explanations were put forward to illustrate a point, that we choose to use springs only as stiff as they need to be, no more. That is not to say that we do not believe in stiffer spring rate, as that is not true. I think you will see that in case#2.
It is all a case of balance, balanced interplay of all suspension components, rather then grabbing for for biggest hammer (spring) that one can.
My previous reply #117 in this thread....
"Yes, correect. That is why we choose the softest spring rates with big sway bars.
Result = more compliance (increased grip) + adequate roll control + reduced chassis and component stress + improved tyre wear + easier to drive (less fatigue on driver) + etc"
A good case in point as to why excessive high springs rates with standars sway bars are not an ideal solution was shown on GTP cars recently (if that is what they are still known as...). I am not sure if anyone has seen this, but their last round at Eastern Creek, turn 1 (~200km/h), one of the cars, I think it was an EVO, started to repeatedly pitch uncontrollably in the rear, and subsequently lost control and spun out. I don't know the exact reason for this, but I am sure that had it been softer sprung with bigger sway bars, this would have been less likely to occur. BTW, GTP cars are free with shocks and springs, roll bars cannot be changed = compromise.
euGeR,
Understand about the difficulties with getting the extra data.
Do something for yourself, and consider getting a tyre pyrometer. It will give you invaluable information about your car. It's a must for suspension tunning.
The two cases were based on rates only.
Regards,
Wojtek
Whiteline Automotive.
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Originally Posted by euGeR
a. upgrade sways - no sacrifice to ride comfort
as i understand it, bigger anti-sway bar will increase total spring rate...
can WL confirm?
B20VTEC - since 2002
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very interesting discussion here.
Anyway, didn't get timed last time I went to wakefield. Had semi slicks on the front, and was running pretty well by the end of the day. Pretty sure I was faster than before.
Previous time, had street tyres, and best time was 1:19 (coilovers, front and rear strut bars) and exhaust.
A couple of things have changed on the car now, better brakes for one, so should do much better when I'm ready to go back.
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This July 5th Q..........come along!
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