Sway Bars & Spring Rates

[ekslut]

Thought I should start a new thread about this seeing as though its been going on in a Wakefield times post and some people might not know its there: http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthr...5&page=8&pp=12

Yes, correect. That is why we choose the softest spring rates with big sway bars.
Result = more compliance (increased grip) + adequate roll control + reduced chassis and component stress + improved tyre wear + easier to drive (less fatigue on driver) + etc...

I have a few questions about this though, as I currently am looking at setting up my suspension on my 1988 Honda Civic for track:

So are you saying that we should be running as big sway bars as we can get, and back off on the hard spring rates?

Are the whiteline swaybars developed for use on the street, with a bit of track work, so there have been some sacrifices in its strength. Or have they been developed for track use and if people decide to use it on street, its up to them? Or does it not matter?

I have heard that using too big a sway bar can rip your mounts, is there any way to find out whats too big?

How can we find out what suspension setup is right? Is it just a matter of trial and error, and throwing away money? Or is there something we can use as a guide or a formula or something that might help us out?

[SPEEDCORE]

Well from a AE86 point of view..... the whiteline kit which was close to 2.5k was ... how should I put it...... not inspiring at all!

It turned a mates AE86 into a understeering dog that had very little responsiveness on the track. I was well dissapointed at the results and the fact that my friend payed that amount of money for.

As for your question with reguard to spring rates and swaybars and their thickness, I am very opposed to going to thicker swaybars without an increase in spring rates. When you really look at it, the swaybar is a just a spring also.... albiet one that ties directly to the chassis/underframe of a car.

One of the big reasons I see the underframe getting ripped out or bent on civics is due to massive increases in swaybar size with non-corresponding increase in spring rates. This in turn is making the swaybar take on more of a roll and has an increase in load it takes that is not in proportion to the springs. Of course this can be off set buy "beefing" up the area with plates such as the (from memory the BEAKS "sp?" kit that is quite popular in the states in their various Honda race catagories).

Trev..... this car is going to be a track only car.... whiteline products in my view are good..... for road use with possibly very light track work. "If" the AE86 Works kit is anything to go by, its not appropriate for moderate track use.

[bennjamin]

Trev..... this car is going to be a track only car.... whiteline products in my view are good..... for road use with possibly very light track work. "If" the AE86 Works kit is anything to go by, its not appropriate for moderate track use.

Whiteline afaik does do its majority work on TRACK only cars really ( and motokhanas/club events etc) and sends its goods around the entire world - so I doubt your experience with the AE86 kit was entirely relevant . But i can understand for spending 2.5k it might of become a shock - just adjust driving style to suit

anyway ! IMO a larger rear swaybar is a fantastic thing - i too own a lil EG 92-95 honda civic and can vouch . BUT it is very important , that ANY size larger than stock , that you install adequete reinforcement.
I ran a simple 18mm replacement swaybar from whiteline - and within a few months of light driving it ripped off one side of the subframe links ( the U joint).

A general rule applies tho - if you are upgrading the size , compensate for subframe wear and upgrade the reinforcement too

[ekslut]

Yeah, this is what I was wondering. If Whiteline design the swaybar combos to still give understeer like a stock car does, so the average driver can easily handle the car when pushed too far.

Thanks for the beaks info, but I checked the site and no love for the ef's Although I am thinking I might jst try a EG kit and see if that fits. Is there anyone else that makes these reinforcement kits?

I know what you are saying about upgrading the rear sway bar Ben and how much it improves the handling. But I am guessing this is with stock front sway bar. It feels a lot better because it helps eliminate the major understeer tendancy honda puts into its cars. But then when you also upgrade the front sway bar, this in theory will bring back more of the understeer.

So do whitleline develop the kit for understeer, and if so how much? If we want to eliminate some of that understeer (not all of it, coz its better to under than to over) how much thicker do we need to go?

Because for my car they offer a 16mm rear sway bar, but if mine came std with a rear sway bar then I would be able to get a 18mm. By the sounds of it 18mm would be the best, but another company also offer 22mm. Which one should I get?

Also these kits are developed I am guessing on a std ED civic. Mine is not standard, it has a heavier engine which would give it more understeer, there for do I need to go bigger than the 16mm or 18mm sway bar as offered by whiteline?

[wynode]

All this talk about Oversteer. I'ts more like neutral (after swaybars) if you ask me. You really need to drive something like a MX5 or a well balanced RWD car to know what oversteer is!

The rearsway bar is mainly to reduce body roll IMO.....the elimination of understeer is a consequence (not how I said elimination of understeer as opposed to oversteer).

[ekslut]

All this talk about Oversteer. I'ts more like neutral (after swaybars) if you ask me. You really need to drive something like a MX5 or a well balanced RWD car to know what oversteer is!

The rearsway bar is mainly to reduce body roll IMO.....the elimination of understeer is a consequence (not how I said elimination of understeer as opposed to oversteer).

Sorry, you have lost me a bit. I can't see where oversteer is mentioned. All I see is understeer!

[BlitZ]

All this talk about Oversteer. I'ts more like neutral (after swaybars) if you ask me. You really need to drive something like a MX5 or a well balanced RWD car to know what oversteer is!

The rearsway bar is mainly to reduce body roll IMO.....the elimination of understeer is a consequence (not how I said elimination of understeer as opposed to oversteer).

With a 22mm sway bar i can definitly induce oversteer. (lift off oversteer)- we arent talking about drifting here.....
And i seriously a none believer that u should reduce spring stiffness when u upgrade your sway bar.. especially when your car is lowered and a honda with weak subframe...

I reckon the sway bar is the best bang...... i wouldnt ever trying installing a large sway bar without going the hardest possible springs unless i have a R

[wynode]

ekslut.....just ignore what I said about oversteer. It wasn't related to you......but comments I have seen from some others about 'oversteer' after getting a rear swaybar.

With a 22mm sway bar i can definitly induce oversteer. (lift off oversteer)

Oversteer and lift off oversteer are two different things. I believe we are talking about oversteer only as opposed to backing off the throttle?

[joyride]

quickie: do hondas need roll centre adjusters?

[BlitZ]

oversteer is over steer....
what happens when u lift off the throttle mid corner? u get over steer...

Most oversteer is throttle induced.. even in rear wheel drive

[wynode]

Sorry i don't agree. Lifting off the throttle is altering the balance of the car via a transfer of weight off the rear wheels.......hence INDUCING oversteer as the rear loses traction.

This is different to powering through a corner under WOT and the sensation of the car turning into the corner much sharper than where the steering wheel is pointing.

[BlitZ]

Sorry i don't agree. Lifting off the throttle is altering the balance of the car via a transfer of weight off the rear wheels.......hence INDUCING oversteer as the rear loses traction.

This is different to powering through a corner under WOT and the sensation of the car turning into the corner much sharper than where the steering wheel is pointing.

how do u get oversteer in rwd? you induce it with the throttle control...
how do u get oversteer in fwd? you induce it with the throttle control...

what happend if you plow into a conrner without using throttle in both fwd and rwd? you understeer/neutral regardless of car...

what dont u agree with?