ALLMOTOR Build Question

**dsp26** · 15-06-2008 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by todaek9

So u are saying you should just change the comp ratio and forget bout the flow? are you correcting me for that??? hmm...

whats compression ratio got to do with what i corrected?

Compresison ratio and camshaft spec should always be decided together.

you get comp ratio and camshaft rite then you can do the rest.... heres an easy example for you...

most ppl who start modifying will get like a 2 or 2.25in press bent catback hoping to get some gains... fair enough if you want to leave it at I/H/E... I went with 2.5in mandrel on 1.6l motor first time around because i knew i was going to build the head later. Man why would I want to pay for it again when i knew I was going to get say Toda B cams later and up the CR to 12:1. In that example, porting and all that shit... would you justify the labour cost for an extra maybe 3wkw on a mild setup even though the head is off etc etc... YOU DECIDE THE WHOLE MATCHING SETUP FROM THE START AS WELL AS POWERBAND TO GET THE MOST OUT OF YOUR $$$

As i've advised with anyone, a full exhaust system is the single most expensive bolt-on you do to a car that you don't want to have to spend on twice. At least plan everything first and don't listen to the next exhaust shop that tells you that 2in is more than enough for a small 1.6l

**joewalsh86** · 15-06-2008 06:25 PM

So what you're essentially saying (which i'm still trying to figure out), is that if i had plans to transform my little b16a into a 85 x 92mm monster at some point in the future, i should slap a 3 inch exhaust, big tube tri-y header and heavily ported IM on there now and be done with it to avoid the hassel later right?

Not a realistic consideration for most car modifiers. Most of us perform our upgrades one by one over the course of a few years. From my experience, those who take on the big builds tend to do it all at once cutting the costs you're referring to. But that's in an ideal world which isn't available to most of us.

I see absolutely no problem with the approach you criticised - achieving a nice smooth flow through the intake, head and exhaust (port matched throttle body and intake manifold etc) is a logical step after intake and exhaust themselves are addressed. A port and polish on the head may be overkill if the cams and compression aren't changed, but that wasn't mentioned in the post you quoted.

Joe

**dsp26** · 15-06-2008 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by joewalsh86

So what you're essentially saying (which i'm still trying to figure out), is that if i had plans to transform my little b16a into a 85 x 92mm monster at some point in the future, i should slap a 3 inch exhaust, big tube tri-y header and heavily ported IM on there now and be done with it to avoid the hassel later right?

Joe

i agree with your post, i don't understand what todaek9 is getting at...

the people who do things in phases are people who buy parts one at at time and install them in combinations which is like 80% of people here which is what you said in your 2nd paragraph.

My original point with my thread bumping was that if you know your doing internals, do that first then all the breathing mods later.

In your scenario, it's like me doing your absolute basic i/h/e with the common brands mentioned here like xforce, then doing the big bore/stroke build then realising that i needed all hat 3in, tri-y stuff you speak off...

**joewalsh86** · 15-06-2008 06:52 PM

It was your post that i didn't understand.

Whilst it may be your opinion to do internals before the basic I/H/E, that's not something i agree with. I plan on going to an 85mm bore with a set of pro 1's, but i wouldn't do that before knowing what i could have acheived in terms of power from a decent header, intake and exhaust.

That doesn't mean to say that your opinion is wrong, it's just something I don't agree with it. It's also not something that the person you quoted agrees with either, along with the majority of people I know who modify hondas.

More often than not, this forum is a place where opinions are exchanged - just becuase you don't agree with an opinion (which i think is perfectly valid) doesn't mean that it's wrong and needs correcting.

**DNYALL** · 15-06-2008 08:02 PM

My Advice is to think about your entire set-up first, plan it out and make sure You do it right the first time. There is nothin worse than spending money on something, only to not be happy with it two months later and have to upgrade and spend money again.

Originally Posted by dsp26

As i've advised with anyone, a full exhaust system is the single most expensive bolt-on you do to a car that you don't want to have to spend on twice. At least plan everything first and don't listen to the next exhaust shop that tells you that 2in is more than enough for a small 1.6l

Haha, I had three different sets of headers on my b16a = Xforce-5zigen-toda. Also had three different cat back set-ups = custom press bent-buddyclub-5zigen/buddyclub. And two different "hi-flo" cats...I was stupid at the start

then got a little bit smarter

Then I had a bit of bad luck which forced another change

Finally after three years I think I am on to a nice exhaust set-up

**todaek9** · 15-06-2008 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by dsp26

As i've advised with anyone, a full exhaust system is the single most expensive bolt-on you do to a car that you don't want to have to spend on twice. At least plan everything first and don't listen to the next exhaust shop that tells you that 2in is more than enough for a small 1.6l

Sooo, you've plan...and the result of your car is, i'm sure of nothing but Magnificent...am i rite?

Soo..what is wrong with doing match flow and then only play ard with Comp ratio?
Because you HIGHLIGHT the whole sentence, means that there is smth WRONG with his ways...

**dsp26** · 15-06-2008 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by todaek9

Sooo, you've plan...and the result of your car is, i'm sure of nothing but Magnificent...am i rite?

Soo..what is wrong with doing match flow and then only play ard with Comp ratio?
Because you HIGHLIGHT the whole sentence, means that there is smth WRONG with his ways...

lol just starting... hows the times with your crate/built motor?

it is nothing magnificent right now because my build won't start till next month as i am still finalising parts.. but yes i've had my i/h/e in my car for a year with a 2.5in mandrel system.. and yes it lost power down low and i knew what i was getting into as yes i do have an ultimate plan for the engine which is only coming to fruition now (1yr later).

It is subjective and there is in a way nothing wrong with his ways i was correcting based on a costing viewpoint which we all know in this Honda community is so important with everyone trying to get everything cheap... If anything i did exactly what he stated, the difference is that I had a plan from the beginning and knew what i put in 1yr earlier in terms of exhaust will be mandatory for my build.

what DNYALL posted above is exactly what i'm getting at and is what i'm trying to help n00bs with (the ones that actually search and find good threads like this)

I know exactly what joewalsh86 is getting at and it makes sense for his serious all-motor build... however he is an example of someone who knows what he's doing and has clearly planned... that doesn't cater for the majority of people here trust me.

Let me put it into perspective... what do you lose if you got say a full 2in exhaust and 4-1s to begin with then got your Toda built motor that actually sees full potential with a 2.5in and tri-y's instead... you just lost yourself $1k??

joewalsh86 justify's that he'd rather see the actual gains with different setups.. fine he's got the recources, knowledge and friends to do so.... do 90% of people here have access to those recources... most of these people don't even dyno or take their cars to the track....

Originally Posted by todaek9

So u are saying you should just change the comp ratio and forget bout the flow? are you correcting him for that??? hmm...

to answer the above, i get this feeling your arguing for the sake of it...
like i said decide on the comp ratio and camshaft together... head flow?!?! why would that matter if a certain setup makes low or midrange power?!?!

flow of an exhaust system? okay flow of an exhaust system is dependent on overall scavenging effect which is a combination of things all the way from the head to the exhaust system... optimally (which is hard to achieve) the intake vacuum pressure should be equivalent to exhaust pressure which requires machines to measure and no-one here can guestimate...

intake flow?? wow lets see... filter-->cai/sri-->tb size-->plenum/runner setup-->head porting-->camshafts-- cam gear dial, valve job and valve sizes.... wow thats a lot of money... wouldn't wanna have to change most of that because i realised my Toda A's are choking and should have got B or Cs instead... then this person get's Cs and realises.. oh crap.. more money coz my CR is too low and maybe my gearing isn't suitable... "shit i was only aiming for a 100-110kw beast, but because i didn't plan properly i'm only making 95wkw with a poor powerband and i have to spend more money to take advantage of everything else..."

**DNYALL** · 15-06-2008 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by todaek9

Sooo, you've plan...and the result of your car is, i'm sure of nothing but Magnificent...am i rite?

Soo..what is wrong with doing match flow and then only play ard with Comp ratio?
Because you HIGHLIGHT the whole sentence, means that there is smth WRONG with his ways...

Nah man, I pointed that out to say he is most likely right and to give an example of my mistake of exhaust choice which ended up in me spending much more money than I should of. I read wat he posted about exhaust choice and thought of the mistakes I made. All I was saying is, do it right the first time and avoid spending more money than neccesary. I made this mistake in the past cos I was a Full Noob and I don't want other people making the same mistake.

I am going through an engine build atm and am facing all the same questions as the thread starter. I havn't decided how far I want to go with it. So many factors that need to be worked out.

**todaek9** · 15-06-2008 11:37 PM

yea, fair enough...
nah, i'm not arguing..just curious of what he's building thats all...lol..
but there will not be a best choice of exhaust or what so ever...just that smth which will not make you lost power will seem to be the best choice...and i also wonder have i really make the rite choice with my own exhaust..hahahaha...sounds awsome but also sounds like it is restricted..hahahaha...

i'm also curious on one thing...though what i'm bout to say is totally outta topic, a mate of mine was driving and he pull with this S15...he was driving a civic...i was told that he pull away from this S15 with quite abit of mods to it..boost ctrl, power FC, etc etc...i was quite amaze as well and i assume it is quite impressive as an S15 with that kinda mods will have roughly ard 200kw atw...so, can someone give me a conclusion?