Ethanol is not bad as i thought

[ginganggooly]

when it comes to questions of consumption and efficiency, i think what you need to actually look at is the energy levels of the fuel, i.e. how much energy is stored for a given mass of fuel. right or wrong?

[BLKCRX]

Evan what are you blabaling on about this time ? debating dude I’m on the lean side of the fence, always have been ! Stop trying 2 twist words…. Can you read this morning !! LOL

FACT 10% of ethanol in your fuel changes your air fuel ratio by NEGATIVE .1 of lambda on average.

Regards James

[Savant]

Can we just have 1 friggin thread where you two don't go on like little ****ing girls!!

[BLKCRX]

I would tend 2 agree with that, ;-)

[aaronng]

LOL... What a nice way to start the weekend, with a debate! Haha.
Anyway, there are 3 sides to the ethanol story.

#1: Ethanol raises octane number. Yes, 10% gives about 3 points. So if you took 95 oct, added 10% eth, and you'd get an e10 blend at 98 oct. If you took 98 oct, added 10%, then you'd theoretically get 101 octane, but I haven't seen anyone do this. Souce: http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/afrw/afrw-05.pdf.

#2: Ethanol has a lower heat of combustion than octane. So you basically get less energy when it is ignited. Octane (equivalent to 100 octane): 33.76 kJ/ml, ethanol: 24.12 kJ/ml. So assuming pure 98 oct fuel is 33.09 kJ/ml, then e10 made from 95 octane fuel + 10% ethanol is 31.28 kJ/ml. It's a small difference of 1.8 kJ/ml which is 5.4% of the original. Based on a fuel consumption of 10L/100km you'd be getting 10.57L/100km, which is a value that most of us would attribute to the fuel pump stopping at different times! Based on a usual 600km per tank, you'd instead get 567.6 which is a 32.4km difference. If you were slightly less heavy on the throttle for a few days, you could offset this difference.

One interesting thing from #2 is that since E10 has a lower heat of combustion compared to pure petrol, wouldn't it burn cooler and offset a lean condition instead?
Ideally: C2H5OH + 3O2 --> 2CO2 + 3H2O
But incomplete combustion gives: C2H5OH + 3O2 --> 2CO + O2 + 3H2O
So you could get 1 O2 if combustion was incomplete. This might be what the lambda sensor is picking up.

#3: Ethanol can damage rubber seals. But then again, so can pure petrol! I don't think that in the places where seals would experience high temperature or exposure to fuel that they would use regular rubber. Remember, many additives can be added to rubber to change its properties. Look at your tyres! It's made from rubber but mere ethanol (100% even) is not going to hurt it! Testing on modern cars show that they can use e10 over a long period of time. e20 that is sold in the states on the other hand can only be used on newer cars.

Have to run now, I'll get the source of the info later. But if it was me, I would stick to pure petrol. Why? Because in the end, the fuel companies will have a lower cost using ethanol in E10, the government still pockets the fuel tax and we as the consumers get hit by the same price at the bowser!

[wynode]

I don't see an argument between BLKCRX and Pro ECU.......yet! Just a good debate

when it comes to questions of consumption and efficiency, i think what you need to actually look at is the energy levels of the fuel, i.e. how much energy is stored for a given mass of fuel. right or wrong?

But you need to also consider how much of that energy is converted to something usefull that does work (to move the piston). But I think Aaron mentioned this later

[BLKCRX]

I don't see an argument between BLKCRX and Pro ECU.......yet! Just a good debate

How can there be a debate when Evan in agreeing to what i said ;-)

[ProECU]

Jamey,

you need to get off that smack.

[BLKCRX]

Smack i don't do that shit i only make it n sell it !!

JK!!

Regards James

[poid]

#3: Ethanol can damage rubber seals. But then again, so can pure petrol! I don't think that in the places where seals would experience high temperature or exposure to fuel that they would use regular rubber. Remember, many additives can be added to rubber to change its properties. Look at your tyres! It's made from rubber but mere ethanol (100% even) is not going to hurt it! Testing on modern cars show that they can use e10 over a long period of time. e20 that is sold in the states on the other hand can only be used on newer cars.

this depends on what research you read...i think its pretty much completely agreed that a 10% blend will not cause damage (from the fuel itself, not including any arguments about running lean etc).

However, some researchers have concluded that it is not damaging to any of the rubber used in cars at all.

For what its worth, in Brazil a lot of cars run on either a high ethanonl blend or pure ethanol.

I think the greatest risk is when you get a servo not blending properly, but just dumping a bunch of ethanol in their tanks and giving an inconsistent fuel mixture.

[aaronng]

this depends on what research you read...i think its pretty much completely agreed that a 10% blend will not cause damage (from the fuel itself, not including any arguments about running lean etc).

However, some researchers have concluded that it is not damaging to any of the rubber used in cars at all.

For what its worth, in Brazil a lot of cars run on either a high ethanonl blend or pure ethanol.

I think the greatest risk is when you get a servo not blending properly, but just dumping a bunch of ethanol in their tanks and giving an inconsistent fuel mixture.

Yup, my conclusion was yes, ethanol can damage rubber seals. But our cars do not use rubber seals that are of the same composition as the ones that get damaged. Our cars have rubber seals of a different composition to withstand petrol, heat and shear force from positive pressure. That same seal can withstand e10. The issue was played up to fight against e10. I'm only not using e10 because the money saved using ethanol is going into someone's pocket and not ours.

Do you know if the engines in Brazil use different seals or fuel lines to withstand the gasohol there?

[poid]

i'm not sure exactly what they do down there...havent looked that far into it to be honest. I've only seen what mods needed to be done to cars in the 1970's