Weighing up pros and cons: AUDM DC2r/DC5r versus AUDM S15 200sx

[Mikecivic78]

Morning all,

In answer to your questions, what I'm after is an out-of the box performance car that can also be a good daily. I want a car that has good straight line acceleration, good seats and handling which I intent to use as a daily drive, as well as an exciting streeter and something that's good for winding mountain roads on the weekends. I've never been out on the track, but when I buy one of these, I would like to attend a few (or many, depending on how hooked I get) track days.

I also want a car which will have good resale value and is relatively cheap to run/insure. I'm not into imports for these reasons. Don't flame me for this, but I don't wanna car that'll be a money pit. I don't like spending too much on mods. I'm only interested in basic bolt-ons (I/H/E, maybe suspension and ECU). I wanna car that I can return to stock later and recoup some cash. I know that I can do this with both cars.

I guess i might sound like I'm asking a lot, aren't I?


As far as my experience goes, I've driven various performance cars (NA MX-5/s14/WRX/BA XR6/DC2/DC5) and I believe that as long as the car is well set up suspension wise, I don't care if it's RW or FWD. Too many people get hung up on this and the RWD vs FWD debate has been done to death. Although I like the sport, I'm not a drifting fanboy either.

As far as the cars I've owned though, they've mostly been 4 pot FWD bangers. My current car is an EM1, and it's the best car I've owned so far. It's almost time to step it up to something better, hence the reason for this thread.

In the past I've done basic mods and servicing myself. I don't usually attempt big jobs, but (like all of us) I am learning and my list of tools is growing.

Thanks for all of the replies so far. I guess after some though the DC5r is more of an out-of-thebox performance car (recaros/suspension set up/transmission), but the s15 sounds like a good daily (softer)proposition. I'm still open to all of your views.

[Mikecivic78]

Here's my opinion man, I've owned all three cars (DC2R, S15 and DC5R) in that order.

What you really have to look at is what you want in the car. My S15 had just a touch under 200rwkw, which I built from the ground up just after selling my DC2R to a mate. It was an absolute straight line weapon, got sideways easily and was a pretty fun car to drive. All was well and good, until I drove the DC2R I'd sold to my mate once again a few months later. It was then I realised that the S15 gearbox felt notchy and fragile and the interior was cheap (I had an 02 SpecR GT). The DC2R steering was just so precise, the gear shifts on the Honda (which was 2 year OLDER than the S15) just felt so smooth.... it's hard to describe, but the car was just SO much more fun to drive than my S15 with double the wheel kilowatts. Anyone who owns or has owned a DC2R I'm sure will agree with me here! My S15 had coilovers, swaybars, bracing, the works, so it's not like I neglected suspension tuning.

I had originally decided to sell the DC2R because I was sick of the lack of low down torque and having to hit vtec just to merge lanes in front of a commodore off the lights. As a daily driver (like all my cars have been) it was just starting to grate and I just felt like a change.

So I sold the S15 and picked up a mint 02 CW DC5R from NSW. The moment I jumped in the car, I knew I wanted it! The gear shifts felt even nicer than the DC2, it had plently of low range torque and you could really feel the research and development that was put into the car. Both the S15 and the DC5R being 2002 models, I didn't think they would be so many worlds apart, but the DC5R really did make the S15 feel like it had been thrown together from spare parts by Nissan.

At the end of the day, it will end up being your personal choice. Straight line power RWD or a fun and precise FWD. Before the DC2R I owned a 180sx and an R33 Series 2, so I'm definitely not one sided when it comes to Nissan and Honda.

As far as insurance goes, both cars were roughly the same, if I had gotten a jap-spec S15 it would have cost more. 2-door coupes will always be expensive though, so there's no real escaping it whether you're turbo or NA.

Things to look out for... the
-S15s almost always have a scratched up centre console and it's hard to find a clean example with so many 99 Jap spec models going around.
-Make sure all mods have been done properly and if the turbo has been replaced, make sure it isn't a KKR piece of junk and that the car has been tuned to the new turbo. If it is a bigger turbo and the car doesn't have an aftermarket tuned ECU, walk away.
-If it has a FMIC, is it cut through the battery tray neatly? Is the piping on the turbo side larger than the turbo inlet? This will cause laaaaaag.
-Make sure the gearbox doesn't crunch.. the S15 6-speed is a piece of crap.

For the DC5
-Make sure the oil's at the correct level to see if eats any.
-Make sure it doesn't blow white smoke on vtec.
-Check for general oil leaks, mine had a drive shaft seal leaking.
-If it has coilovers, have they been set up properly? Some people are stupid enough to not bother with a wheel alignment after.

I guess I could go on forever... I'm sure others on here will be able to tell you more about the issues with DC5Rs and DC2Rs. Or just give it a search, I'm pretty sure I've seen threads on the topic before. I hope what I've written about my own experience helps with the decision man.

Thanks for the post, it's good to hear the opinion of someone who's owned all 3 cars. I just don't know why Nissan's quality lags behind. Thanks for buying tips as well. When I buy cars, I always buy stockers owned by mature owners, and as far as the s15 is concerned, the selection of ones like that is few and far between.

[EK1.6LCIV]

advantage, if you were to spin a bearing in an sr20det, pretty easy to find a decent replacement for a good price compared to if you were to damage anything on the ITR

the wrx is the same, heaps of good halfcuts for them around for reasonable money if need be

ITR problems:
possible theft of the damn badges
possible theft of seats
expensive engine to repair
expensive panels to repair
costs associated with the maintainace of a performance Honda (hiked insurance for young drivers is a prime example)

Advantages:
trunk space
leg room
wont go into too many more examples

S15 problems:
the demographic and previous owners of some
lack of history to most
oil circulation (sump size for one)
weak gearbox in comparison to earlier models (find one with a s13/s14 gearbox in 5spd) (or if possible get the jdm spec s with the 5spd)
trunk space (eskies have problems fitting)
rear seating is a joke
possible risk of theft
shitty intake manifold compared to the redtop sr20det (I can use the honda oil filter tool on it and remove it from the top with ease, but when the type x came out they fked up the design), -which is why sooo many people have a/m filter relocator kits
disassembles with great ease
more people are making cheaper 2jz conversion kits for them (the perfect car, reliability at last )

advantages:
better head than the s13 redtop
decent cam profiles compared to older sr20det redtop
cheap motors for when it spins a bearing
decent turbo stock over previous silvias
cheaper bolt on parts
the position of bushes, best stock suspension I've driven in a jap car great balance
comes turboed factory (no need to even think of boosting a honda)
tight gears, awesome ratio, sits on the highway alot nicer than an integra

wrx:
problems:
find a billet driveshaft supplier
upgrade gearbox
you can easily fk the rear diff by using the spare wheel for extended periods of time (more than a few days) on the earlier models
buy the newest one you can afford
easily stolen (earlier models)
the early automatic versions will stay on boost when you put the pedal down without going into vacuum causing the lil snail to glow white, spirited runs more than an hour will cause great amounts of heat, lol
changing spark plugs
boxer engine oil flow (make sure the oil is up to the mark all the time)
tappet noise if using non subaru oil filters and decent oil (early models)
owning one will make you want a B4
blue is extremely bad luck

advantages:
great storage in pre-airbag models (no airbag so storage there and all over the dash)
the control when off road on goat tracks
the sound
great seats
the ra models
drives like it's on rails
will over take and lane hop with great ease into tight gaps (if need be)
good standard options from factory

[Mikecivic78]

advantage, if you were to spin a bearing in an sr20det, pretty easy to find a decent replacement for a good price compared to if you were to damage anything on the ITR

the wrx is the same, heaps of good halfcuts for them around for reasonable money if need be

ITR problems:
possible theft of the damn badges
possible theft of seats
expensive engine to repair
expensive panels to repair
costs associated with the maintainace of a performance Honda (hiked insurance for young drivers is a prime example)

Advantages:
trunk space
leg room
wont go into too many more examples

S15 problems:
the demographic and previous owners of some
lack of history to most
oil circulation (sump size for one)
weak gearbox in comparison to earlier models (find one with a s13/s14 gearbox in 5spd) (or if possible get the jdm spec s with the 5spd)
trunk space (eskies have problems fitting)
rear seating is a joke
possible risk of theft
shitty intake manifold compared to the redtop sr20det (I can use the honda oil filter tool on it and remove it from the top with ease, but when the type x came out they fked up the design), -which is why sooo many people have a/m filter relocator kits
disassembles with great ease
more people are making cheaper 2jz conversion kits for them (the perfect car, reliability at last )

advantages:
better head than the s13 redtop
decent cam profiles compared to older sr20det redtop
cheap motors for when it spins a bearing
decent turbo stock over previous silvias
cheaper bolt on parts
the position of bushes, best stock suspension I've driven in a jap car great balance
comes turboed factory (no need to even think of boosting a honda)
tight gears, awesome ratio, sits on the highway alot nicer than an integra

wrx:
problems:
find a billet driveshaft supplier
upgrade gearbox
you can easily fk the rear diff by using the spare wheel for extended periods of time (more than a few days) on the earlier models
buy the newest one you can afford
easily stolen (earlier models)
the early automatic versions will stay on boost when you put the pedal down without going into vacuum causing the lil snail to glow white, spirited runs more than an hour will cause great amounts of heat, lol
changing spark plugs
boxer engine oil flow (make sure the oil is up to the mark all the time)
tappet noise if using non subaru oil filters and decent oil (early models)
owning one will make you want a B4
blue is extremely bad luck

advantages:
great storage in pre-airbag models (no airbag so storage there and all over the dash)
the control when off road on goat tracks
the sound
great seats
the ra models
drives like it's on rails
will over take and lane hop with great ease into tight gaps (if need be)
good standard options from factory

Nice post (and I like ur new Avatar)

Good info, except, like i said, I'm not even going to consider a WRX. Not at all a fan .

Thanks Ryan

[Mikecivic78]

The s15 gearboxes, even when new were known to be a bit notchy and a bit grumpy. Like I said earlier, I've driven an s14a, and it had a satisfactory feel and action. I'm yet to drive an s15 and try the 'box.

[Mikecivic78]

owning one will make you want a B4
blue is extremely bad luck

Hey Ryan,

What exactly do u mean by these two comments?

Do u mean want a B4 Legacy? Is that the next logical progression for Subaru fans?

Any why is Blue bad luck?

[Mikecivic78]

I found this: http://www.itrsport.com/reviews.html
Nice resource of scanned DC2r related articles.

Click on Wild At Heart, Motor Magazine, Jan 2001. The article puts the bug eye WRX against the s15 and DC2r.

This is another good Aussie article from that database. Click on Bang For Your Bucks, Motor, October 2000. It pits the DC2r against other (mostly less potent performance cars, including the WRX.)

[burak213]

good info here

sub'd

need to rep ppl as well!

[levi R]

I have a 02 dc5r and my brother owns a 200sx spec r. I must say the gearshift and steering in the integra is much much more precise. Whilst both cars are the same age, the silvia is a little older in terms of the age of the model And it definately shows it ( especially interior wise). Whilst I really like the low seating position of the silvia, I find the integra much more comfortable to drive. The silvia feels like it rides much harder In the rear. All in all both are excellent cars, I did find though that the silvia is a little much in the wet as a daily, with the tail being extremely touchy.

Stock for stock both cars are so close comparison straight line wise it's a non issue. So for me, the newer feeling of the integra and it's better driveability as a daily tip it in favour. And the far cheaper insurance premium, almost 900 annually difference (as a 23 yr old) certainly helps!

[90LAN]

tell us what your budget 1st
then we can help you out more

because prices of these cars are greatly different

[Mikecivic78]

tell us what your budget 1st
then we can help you out more

because prices of these cars are greatly different

I plan to budget approx $18-19K. Obviously a fair bit less (and sooner) if I'm going to get a DC2r.

[pure_na]

I plan to budget approx $18-19K. Obviously a fair bit less (and sooner) if I'm going to get a DC2r.

fair bit less? if you've got that sort of money for a dc2r, you would get a mint example, which would mean you would pay exactly that (if you are uber-bargaining-man, and very, very lucky, you would pay 17). the reason i say this is because like you said, you want to recoup some money, and a mint example dc2r will reaaaally help with that in a couple of years time .

oh and reading your comment on fwd, rwd....to be clear, i wasn't saying one is better lol. from my few years of experience, they are very different, so i thought maybe it might make a difference to you.