United States Grand Prix - Discussion

[pornstar]

See as more and more discussion grows, blame falls squarly on Michelin.

I've heard this a few times in this post, so Ill ask with a helmet on. There was the suggestion that they michelin runners slow down for that corner to save their tyres. They never even looked at this.

[Javed]

YEs it was looked at, but it was deemed too risky.

[pornstar]

Thats what i dont get, ppl slow down with mechanical problems, or certain cars with certain packages....

[h17am]

To those that still thinks that a chicane should have been installed and to those that blamed FIA by not "bending" the rules a little bit:
1. F1 is a sporting contest which has its own rules and regulations. This should not be changed everytime a competitor brings the wrong equipment. Michelin had two wrong tyres in the USGP. Michelin flew over tyres from France and also said that they too were unsafe.
2. So then Michelin wanted a chicane to slow down turns 12-13. This is rejected and FIA offered solutions e.g: speed monitoring through 12-13, pitting in to change tyres (under safety regulations) or going through the pits every lap so not to run turns 12-13. The fact that FIA suggested these solutions kinda shows that the cars are NOT going to blow up if you pit in too often.
3. Michelin did not want to do any of these solutions, so they still wanted the chicane installed. The installed chicane would slow down the Michelin cars through turns 12 and 13... and it would slow down the Bridgestone cars as well.
4. FIA considers this to be grossly unfair to the bridgestone runners and hence rejects the chicane idea.
5. Some issues to be considered regarding the chicane idea:
- With not much time left after the chicane is installed, if it was installed, there won't be any chance for the teams to test and make changes to the cars.
- The changes to the cars needed may include: brake balance, gear ratios, aerodynamics, suspension setting, TYRE CHOICE!!!!, etc, etc, etc.
- The cars are set up for the original Indianapolis with super fast turns 12-13. Putting in a chicane there would mean that the circuit layout is changed, the characteristics is changed (i.e. from a super fast turn 13, to a super slow chicane). This may have an effect on the brakes as they are forced to do more work than what they are designed for (instead of going all out for turn 13, braking is necessary).
- With such a short time to conduct the chicane, it means the construction of the chicane would probably not satisfy the safety requirements and standards. Imagine if an accident occured there.
6. It must also be noted that both Michelin and Bridgestone are given a letter by FIA, addressing the importance of the reliability of the tyres. This basically said that they shouldn't compromise safety over performance. And this is done after the Monaco GP where both Renaults wore down their tyres so much.

So, by wanting the chicane put in, Michelin wants to slow down corners turn 12-13. However this would also slow down all the Bridgestone cars, and not only that, it would have significant effects on all the cars setting and so on. Pity Michelin does not understand this.

[^^v]

Michelin puts blame on Max Mosley
'We proposed realistic, feasible alternatives'





Who is 'right' in this strange situation?

French tyre-maker Michelin has rejected any blame for advising seven Formula One teams to pull out of Sunday's US Grand Prix because of fears its tyres might be dangerous.

After Ralf Schumacher's high-speed accident in Friday's free practice in Indianapolis left the German driver so shaken he had to withdraw from the race, Michelin admitted it could not guarantee the durability of the tyres supplied for the race.

They pinned hopes on new tyres being flown in from its base at Clermont-Ferrand. But formula one's governing body, the FIA, refused to allow new tyres to be used, or a chicane to be set up to slow the cars. But Michelin's competition deputy director Frederic Henry-Biabaud said Monday they had no option but to withdraw.

"Michelin would have been to blame if it had raced. Do you imagine what would have happened if, having seen the failure on Friday, we had decided to race the tyre and we had a problem," he told Europe 1 radio station. "I prefer, as a company, we find ourselves in this position rather than if there had been an accident."

He blamed the specifics of the Indianapolis track and he hit out at motor racing's governing body, the FIA, for failing to agree to a compromise.


"We proposed realistic, feasible alternatives," he added.

The FIA's stance was seen as a hardening of the battle lines between the body's president, Max Mosley, and the car manufacturers who back the idea of a breakaway championship in the face of Mosley's raft of new regulations to simplify motor racing to be brought in from the start of 2008.

Michelin's failure to supply its teams with safe and durable tyres came less than two weeks after it was warned by the FIA not to sacrifice safety for performance. Mosley wrote to Michelin in the wake of Kimi Raikkonen's suspension failure in the European Grand Prix - caused by vibrations which built up after the Finn flat-spotted his right front tyre - warning it should take no risks in the specifications of its tyres.

Source AFP

f1live.com

[^^v]

blows exchanged.....

at the end of the day.. its all bout fkn politics.. money n power...

FIA stress need for rules to be followed
After US Grand Prix fiasco





'Formula One is a sporting contest.
It must operate by clear rules.' - FIA
World motorsport's world governing body, the FIA, on Monday stressed the need for Formula One rules to be adhered to after criticism by French tyre-maker Michelin that FIA were to blame for the US Grand Prix fiasco which has severely dented American interest in the sport.

Only the six cars on Bridgestone tyres took part after a row over additional track safety measures once a practice crash alerted Michelin to the fact they had a problem.

Fans and Indianapolis track officials were fuming after Sunday's farce saw world champion Michael Schumacher claim his first win of the year ahead of Ferrari team-mate Rubens Barichello to give Ferrari 18 championship points which puts them joint second with McLaren.

FIA, stressing the need for rules to be adhered to, said in a statement on Monday: "Formula One is a sporting contest. It must operate by clear rules. These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race.

"At Indianapolis we were told by Michelin that their tyres would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner. We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalising any excess.


"However the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount. They suggested a chicane. The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules. The Bridgestone teams had suitable tyres. They did not need to slow down.

"The Michelin teams' lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula One."

FIA said the behaviour by tyre-makers Michelin and the teams using their tyres had damaged the sport.

"What about American fans? What about Formula One fans worldwide? Rather than boycott the race, the Michelin teams should have agreed to run at reduced speed in turn 13.

"The rules would have been kept, they would have earned Championship points and the fans would have had a race. As it is, by refusing to run unless the FIA broke the rules and handicapped the Bridgestone runners, they have damaged themselves and the sport."

Earlier, Michelin's competition deputy director Frederic Henry- Biabaud said Monday they had no option but to withdraw. "Michelin would have been to blame if it had raced. Do you imagine what would have happened if, having seen the failure on Friday, we had decided to race the tyre and we had a problem," he told Europe 1 radio station. "I prefer, as a company, we find ourselves in this position rather than if there had been an accident."

He blamed the specifics of the Indianapolis track and he hit out at motor racing's governing body, the FIA, for failing to agree to a compromise. "We proposed realistic, feasible alternatives," he added.

The row is seen in some quarters as a hardening of the battle lines between the body's president, Max Mosley, and the car manufacturers who back the idea of a breakaway championship in the face of Mosley's raft of new regulations to simplify motor racing to be brought in from the start of 2008.

Michelin's failure to supply its teams with safe and durable tyres came less than two weeks after it was warned by the FIA not to sacrifice safety for performance.

Mosley wrote to Michelin in the wake of Kimi Raikkonen's suspension failure in the European Grand Prix - caused by vibrations which built up after the Finn flat-spotted his right front tyre - warning it should take no risks in the specifications of its tyres.

Source AFP

[Vivski]

Nah, I still say a chicane would have been a good solution. A better solution than a 6 car race which was an alternative... it was the alternative the FIA chose. They had options and they chose that one so they have to be able to back up that decision instead of hiding behind the rulebook.

There are two reasons why a chicane would be a bad idea...
1) Bridgestone are disadvantaged because they have worked hard and Michelin have got it wrong. Bridgestone did nothing wrong and they are being punished?
2) It is unsafe to have drivers tearing toward a brand new corner in race conditions.

Two solutions...
1) Michelin score no points, so Bridgestone are no longer disadvantaged, who cares if the cars aren't perfectly setup, it's better than a 6 car race.
2) Build the chicane overnight (when it was first suggested... not 30mins before), let the drivers drive through it in road cars that morning to get a feel for it, then have 10 sighting laps before starting a 60 lap race.

They would be two solutions which would make it safe and feasible for a good race. Ferrari get their points, Michelin gets to race and the FIA get a warm fuzzy feeling that they've done the right thing for the sport.

There is a way this could have been resolved. They can't just hide behind the rulebook. There needs to be a new rule. If the race is going to be shot to pieces, the FIA must find a fair solution so the fans get to see a good race.


I'm not saying a chicane would have been a perfect solution. I'm not saying it would not have stuffed up the cars' setups. I'm saying it was a much better solution than a 6 car race. It would have showcased F1 as a sport with quick thinking management and a sport which can make anything possible. But to throw your hands up in the air and say there's nothing we can do...


The alternatives offered to the Michelin runners were not acceptible. Running slower, using pit lane, changing tyres. All result in Ferrari lapping the entire field. That's not a spectacle. Even if they're running for points, the whole race would have been a circus if they used any of those solutions. The Michelin runners were better to pack up and head back to France where I'm sure Michelin will be looking to get back to the front infront of their home crowd.


In the end, it doesn't really matter for the season. The deserving drivers and teams got the points. The championship will be back to full tilt in two week. The only real losers are the US fans and the US GP. Really sad that all those people came from far and wide and got to see a poor excuse of a race. I hope they got their money back... any word on that? Did they get their money back?


Hey, if Jean Todt is serious, that if a chicane was put in and Ferrari was given 18 points before the race, he would not have let Michael and Rubens race... that's a strange decision. No points on offer, we don't race. How much does it cost to race once they have everything there already? Everything is set up for a race, it's all paid for... and they would pull their cars? He's full of sh*t. As he said, America is their biggest market. They're not going to pull their cars when the whole race has been paid for and give up a chance to showcase their racing just because there are no points on offer.

[Hondavirgin]

I don't get it, Michelin's job is to supply tyres to fit the track, not the FIA's job to supply tracks to fit the tyres.

A chicane was ridiculous. However, reading the michelin response up there it seems that the FIA refused to allow them to use new tyres they brought in that would have been safe to use, however Charlie Whiting's letter said they could pit in and change tyres during the race for safety reasons and he would accept this fault was reason enough for this.

So basically, as i understand it, they would have come in after the first lap, changed tyres to the safe michelins, and then gone out again, net result being they lose one pit stop, we get a race. Blame lies with Michelin.

I mean, what if Ferrari came to the spanish gp and then found their brakes weren't up to the task of that big stop at the end. Would you expect the FIA to put a chicane in half way down the straight?

As for whether F1 is a business or a sport, its a business for Bernie, but a sport for everyone else. If business sense prevailed then the chicane would have been put in as what happened on the weekend was business suicide! So clearly the SPORTING side of things was in play, i.e. the rules of the game.

but like i said above, why didn't michelin pit in to change tyres?!!?!?!

[hihidamon]

...Michelin should be kicked in the nuts over and over again for not racing when they could have, by either going through the pits every lap to avoid running turn 13, changing the tyres in pitstops which is allowed under safety considerations.

Great idea on going thru pit lane everylap, but at the speed limit of 80kmh, defintely it would have created a traffic jam in the pit lane!

BTW, Changing tyres is allowed only with penalty imposed everytime a tyre is changed, because the Michellin was technically and foundamentally unsafe in the very beginning of the race (not caused by blow-up or incidents), safety considerations would not be granted. If no penalty is to be imposed, everyone is going to come up with qualifying tyres (which last only 20 laps)for qualifying, and then they can change tyres free from penalty, "under safety considerations" during a normal pit stop on lap 20 and 40 or so depending on the race distance - effectively not 1 tyre per race anymore.

[Hondavirgin]

well, i clearly remember (i'll check the tape tonight maybe) Crompton reading out the ltr from Charlie Whiting to Michelin and their teams before the "race" and it said that he accepted that the tyres were unsafe and would allow teams to change tyres based on safety grounds. So why couldn't they do this? if you want to make sure it doesn't happen again, hit them with like a stop go penalty or drive through.

I think it would have been penalty enough to have to stop, change tyres (ban on putting any fuel in at the same time) and then have a drive through as well, you're looking at probably up to a minute lost right there.

[hihidamon]

To those that still thinks that a chicane should have been installed and to those that blamed FIA by not "bending" the rules a little bit:
1. F1 is a sporting contest which has its own rules and regulations. This should not be changed everytime a competitor brings the wrong equipment. Michelin had two wrong tyres in the USGP. Michelin flew over tyres from France and also said that they too were unsafe.
2. So then Michelin wanted a chicane to slow down turns 12-13. This is rejected and FIA offered solutions e.g: speed monitoring through 12-13, pitting in to change tyres (under safety regulations) or going through the pits every lap so not to run turns 12-13. The fact that FIA suggested these solutions kinda shows that the cars are NOT going to blow up if you pit in too often.
3. Michelin did not want to do any of these solutions, so they still wanted the chicane installed. The installed chicane would slow down the Michelin cars through turns 12 and 13... and it would slow down the Bridgestone cars as well.
4. FIA considers this to be grossly unfair to the bridgestone runners and hence rejects the chicane idea.
5. Some issues to be considered regarding the chicane idea:
- With not much time left after the chicane is installed, if it was installed, there won't be any chance for the teams to test and make changes to the cars.
- The changes to the cars needed may include: brake balance, gear ratios, aerodynamics, suspension setting, TYRE CHOICE!!!!, etc, etc, etc.
- The cars are set up for the original Indianapolis with super fast turns 12-13. Putting in a chicane there would mean that the circuit layout is changed, the characteristics is changed (i.e. from a super fast turn 13, to a super slow chicane). This may have an effect on the brakes as they are forced to do more work than what they are designed for (instead of going all out for turn 13, braking is necessary).
- With such a short time to conduct the chicane, it means the construction of the chicane would probably not satisfy the safety requirements and standards. Imagine if an accident occured there.
6. It must also be noted that both Michelin and Bridgestone are given a letter by FIA, addressing the importance of the reliability of the tyres. This basically said that they shouldn't compromise safety over performance. And this is done after the Monaco GP where both Renaults wore down their tyres so much.

So, by wanting the chicane put in, Michelin wants to slow down corners turn 12-13. However this would also slow down all the Bridgestone cars, and not only that, it would have significant effects on all the cars setting and so on. Pity Michelin does not understand this.

Cant agree more!
Michellin has obviously stepped over the limit this year and paid the price in consequence. This saga really gives us the reason why the bridgestones have been "slow" compared to the speedy Michellins.

[Zdster]

5. Some issues to be considered regarding the chicane idea:
- With not much time left after the chicane is installed, if it was installed, there won't be any chance for the teams to test and make changes to the cars.

I agree with most of what you are saying except this. I think that there was talk of putting in a chicane as early as 24 hours prior to the race. That would have given the teams at least some chance to learn the new configuration.