The Kswap Thread

[CIV-18C]

Thanx Mark. Was an effort and a half to undo one of the allen key bolts for the throttle body though.
Adrian from TODA sure put em on tightly.

Got any hook-ups for round our area seeing as though TOP ONE are a bit too far and Hanny's is expensive?

Yup.
Benny and Jimmy at BYP are not too far (Smithfield). I've personally known them for a few years and these guys know anything that came out of the Honda factory very well .
And even closer, is the shop I mentioned to you before, Ison Industries at Blacktown. That shop is run by James. He is a gun mechanic. With any car. Worked on my old EG (still is), recently did work on my EK, worked on my sister's Mini Cooper S, my Dad's 4WD, Uncle's Celica, cousins Astra, well you get the drift lol
But he is also really starting to specialise in Hondas. I've turned all my friends to him and they all call him for any mechanic work too.

=)

[Snoop_gee]

whats the thoughts with blocking the IAVC some are complaining of the fact having to adjust the nut/screw.Once the blocking plate is installed.
Others have said because its only a weekender or trackcar it doesnt matter.

But if its a daily its alot more annoying.

[mocchi]

best to keep aav if you delete iacv. it lets you idle higher when engine cold and lower when engine is warm.
adjust idle when engine warm or close aav then adjust idle screw.

[Snoop_gee]

so blocking the IACV means its all manual operation.
where as keeping IACV its automatically controlled via the Kpro.

[mocchi]

Forgive my ignorance but I need to ask a few things about open and closed Loop in K pro.

So when running the motor in closed loop, the computer adjusts the fuel so that the A/F ratio is ideal. In open loop, the car runs strictly off the fuel maps that are in the calibration. That is what I understand so far..

My questions are:

1)If the computer adjusts the fuel on its own, why do people street tune before they hit the dyno to adjust the a/f ratio?

2)I understand that when tuning on the dyno, it needs to be in open loop.. but when the car is in closed loop, is there a way to see the adjustements the computer is making to the fuel values?


Basically, I have this calibration that kicks ass on my car, but in open loop a/f ratio on K pro is crazy high... so I have to run it in closed loop.

Can a calibration loose power from switching from closed loop to open loop?


Last question.. Some people are telling me that the stock 02 sensor is not very accurate and that I should go by the readings of a a/f sensor that gets stuck in the exhaust during a dyno session.. and basically not to worry too much about the Kpro A/F reading... I find that hard to believe.. any input?

I basically want to be able to use that calibration on a daily basis without risking going lean.

When datalogging on the street, is there a point into doing it while in closed loop? Or should it always be in open loop so that the user can see the actual a/d ratio...

Sorry about these questions, but I need to understand this 100%

there is a setting in parameters for open loop. it defaults to 89kpa i think. if the MAP reads less than 89kpa, the ECU is in closed loop. it'll trim for 14.7 AF. once the MAP goes above 89kpa, the ECU switches to open loop and just go straight off the tables.

why would i want to switch open loop? because closed loop is slow to react. closed loop fuel trim is at least 0.5sec "behind" the actual AF reading.

in closed loop, the ECU targets 14.7 which is way too lean for WOT operations. even if you're on the street and you just floor it, the ECU switches to open loop automatically.

re. #1 the point of street tuning is that if done correctly, you can get your WOT and near-WOT columns 95% tuned... meaning less time spent on dyno tuning = $$ saved. or, you can spend that time on the dyno fine-tuning cam angles, VTEC crossover, ignition advance etc. instead of on basic A/F adjustments.

re. #2 in closed loop you will still see what your A/F and fuel trims are doing, as well as knock. if your car is a daily driver then it's just as important (if not more important) to spend a good amount of time with closed loop disabled and tune the part-throttle/normally closed-loop columns. the more accurate these areas are tuned, the better your car will run in closed loop, because the ECU doesn't have to work so hard making large fuel trim adjustments. if these areas are out of whack, your fuel trim will be swinging all over the place, and since it lags it takes away from the smoothness and efficiency of the engine.

Tuning for intakes:
For tuning purposes it is important to know the resonance point (the rpm where the intake makes that extra sound as if you were blowing on a bottle) of a CAI. For example, the AEM CAI on an RSX-S has a resonance point of 5200, the short ram AEM V2’s is at about 5900. Longer pipes have lower resonance points. There is a torque peak (and often a lean spot because an untuned motor doesn’t get enough fuel) at the resonance point. You can tune for different intakes. Doug has mentioned that pressurized intakes can really make a difference. Build a box around it to force air into it.

Hytech 4-2-1 2.5" collector on k24a3 with RBC have resonance point at about 4-5krpm
RBC flows good on 6-8k rpm.

as shown on datalog, afr lean spikes.

Some of the notes are sourced from fairly dated seminars for the B-Series or RSX. Most of them are plain wrong for the Civic Si, but here are the major changes for the Civic Si:

Reliability: Don't set the rev limiter any higher than 8600 rpm on a stock engine.

Dyno repeatability: Do not switch off the knock sensor nor primary o2 when tuning the Civic Si.

Tuning for torque: Don't tunr an endurance engine rich.

Optimize starting and idling: Cranking ignition does not use the ignition tables.

Knock: The Civic Si ECU will not advance / ratard on knock (the notes were from a B-Series ECU).

Economy and emissions: Part throttle ignition advance is optimized for economy, best not to change. Also, do NOT lean out the part throttle and run in open loop for economy as suggested.

What did Hondata find when they analyzed the ECU?: The stock Civic i ECU does not run rich at high rpm. The Civic Si stock ignition timing is not conversative.

VTC: There are five fuel & ignition tables for low cam & 5 for high cam.

Software: For the love of god, #3 cylinder does not run hot on any K-Series. This is B-Series data.

Trubo VTEC tuning: If your cam angle is ever 0 at 8000 rpm, you have a major exhaust restriction which needs to be looked at.

Supercharged engines: Don't set the WOT closed loop higher than 90 kPa.


There may be more, this was just from a quick skim.

http://www.pencomputing.com/rsx/The_Hondata_KPro103.htm
http://www.pencomputing.com/rsx/adjusting_fuel.html
http://www.pencomputing.com/rsx/kpro...ced_tuning.htm
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/honda...de-tuning.html
http://www.hondata.com/ktech.html

[Killa From Manila]

Got a question for those experienced with tuning kpro as i plan on getting a tune done soon.

My car is currently running without the factory primary o2 sensor, its in open loop.
Is it recommended to buy a factory primary o2 sensor and run the car in closed loop or is it okay to have the car run open loop 24/7? The car is not a daily, just a weekend car.

I also have an AEM UEGO which i will eventually connect to the ELD input but afaik thats just for datalogging right? and you cannot run the car in closed loop with it.

any input will be appreciated cheers

[mocchi]

you got a cat? running in open loop can kill your cat quick they say. also not to mention terrible fuel economy.

i suggest buy factory denso o2 sensor, its wideband too.

you using stock ecu? prc? k20?

for me running in open loop 24/7 is not a great idea considering o2 sensor is only 100-150

[Killa From Manila]

yea running a cat. setup ive got is k20z1, pnf ecu with kpro

if the car is tuned properly open loop cant be much defferent than closed can it? because the way i understand it the ecu runs in closed loop for light loads then changes to open loop and uses your tuned maps when manifold air pressure goes above 80kpa or am i way off track? lol

[mocchi]

yea running a cat. setup ive got is k20z1, pnf ecu with kpro

if the car is tuned properly open loop cant be much defferent than closed can it? because the way i understand it the ecu runs in closed loop for light loads then changes to open loop and uses your tuned maps when manifold air pressure goes above 80kpa or am i way off track? lol

youre right mun, its switches to open loop when WOT (> 89 kpa) by default in kpro. it uses your fuel maps + short fuel trim when in closed loop.
when it goes to open loop, it just looks on fuel map, no adjustment on short trim.
if its tuned properly then i dont think its bad, but im not too sure.

hang on, does it even start without o2 sensor?
doesnt it throw a code?

wat

[Killa From Manila]

Starts runs and drives just uncheck closed loop box in kpro.

[GSi_PSi]

Definately get the o2 sensor, fuel economy will be shithouse without, not to mention the car will feel laggy..

my swap didnt have a working o2 sensor for a while.... was nugget

srs

[CIV-18C]

How bad is it without?

Economy and performance wise?

On K Swaps, can you just use the OEM O2 Sensor or do you have to use a different one?