Lowering Euro and other suspension mods

[madjace]

I will add 2 cents more , this is just my opion and is not intended to offend any one . the best way to work out what improves the performance of your car is to try different things and see hwat it does to your car , not everyone has the money to try different things so they end up on forums seeking advice on what works , unfortunatley i have noticed over the last couple of years that the advice some members give seems to be based on what brands are the coolest or what other people have said . When you do get advice from someone who has actually tried something they often seem to get flamed becuase they may not agree with what brand or advice that is trendy at the momment .

now that i have sid that i juts want to say that the euro is a great car for ride compfort which is why i would have thought most people buy them , however they are a great handling car out of the box and the chassis works extremely well on tight corners ( believe me i have tested it ) in these honda cars the chassis i believe is the most important factor given that our cars are price sesitive . if you want to get better handling out of your car i understand totally why you would want to do that , just beware that you will probably be trading off ride quality ( softness ) in order to get it , also please do some research into how suspension works either before you changethings or ( probably like most of us ) after you have spent the money based on all sorts of advice and then work out that the car is actually worse now .

seriously thats why most of us have spent so much money on our suspensions over the years , coz we didnt get it right the first time , however it did make us learn how everything worked . i tell you there is nothing sadder than spending several grand on new coilovers etc and finding the car is not better or parhaps worse , but it does make you think about what to do to set things up properly

not taking sides just adding my 2 cents worth

[aleksandrov]

Picture is from here:
http://www.j-garage.com/honda/accord/euror.htm

Thank you. I hope that wasn't too much trouble for you. I will make further enquiries to get a part number for that brace.

Btw, the fact that the Euro R in that picture does have a strut brace does not invalidate the presumption that strut braces are not ALWAYS of significant handling benefit, depending on other aspects of the chasis and suspension. There are plenty of more expensive and more sports-dedicated street cars than the Euro R that do not have strut braces.

How about you link to pictures of the CL7 without a strut brace?

If I could find it, I would have already posted it and I wouldn't have asked you for a source.

[size=3][font=Times New Roman]It does not necessarily correlate to what Mugen or Honda think is absolutely best for handling.

Of course it doesn't. But it CAN be indicative of what they think can be convincingly demonstrated to provide good balance and performance value for the road. That's why I raised the question, which you seem to have interpreted as an absolute and definitive statement on my part.

A balance is usually struck based on a lot of factors including target market, what is "safe" for the average (or bad) driver, and yes - cost. You might think a strut brace is minimal cost to Honda per vehicle - but over the production life of a car it is not insignificant.

Where did I suggest that that is what I think? Your cost argument doesn't explain why Mugen, which lives off selling performance UPGRADES for Hondas, doesn't see value in making swaybars or a strut brace for the Euro, especially given its demonstrated capacity to demand high premiums for its products from customers i.e. its capacity to pass on the cost to the customer PLUS make a substantial profit. It also doesn't explain why Honda Japan, Honda Europe and even Acura don't offer upgraded swaybars (or a strut brace in the case of Europe and japan) for the CL9, but they do offer the more expensive shocks and springs combination.

The Euro R/TSX has extra bracing, thicker sway and different suspension for a reason.

This point is irrelevant to what I've been saying, unless you have figures for the spring and damping rates and the front and rear swaybar diameters of the TSX.

You also have owners who have much stiffer and infinitely better suspension than I do who later add the rear sway and love it (eg baboo).

Isn't Baboo the guy who was tracking his car? I made it clear that a very stiff set-up, including stiffer swaybars, can be of significant benefit on the track. Another point you have to keep in mind is that people who have adjustable coilovers can cure an imbalance caused by a disproportionately thicker rear swaybar by appropriate adjustment of the coilovers. Of course, the car would be closer to perfection if there was no imbalance to cure in the first place i.e. if the front and rear swaybar were well matched to each other.

I totally stand by my comment that the $200 Whiteline rear sway is better handling bang for buck than your $1600 suspension.

You might well be right, especially if you place greater emphasis on the buck than the bang. For me, I first look at how much bang I want and then for the best price available for that amount of bang. If I was to decide that bigger swaybars and a strut brace are worthy mods to the Euro for my needs, I would be looking at more solid manufacturers (as far as engineering capacity, demonstrated expertise in tuning the Euro, and manufacturing quality are concerned), such as Honda (perhaps from the Type R), Mugen, Swift, Cusco etc. I know I'll have to pay more, but I have little doubt that I'll get better bang and piece of mind than with Whiteline.

[font=Times New Roman][size=3]Lastly, if you think Eibach is so focused on selling products that must "go together" (eg rear and front sway sold together) so as to not upset the fine balance of the car – why do they sell springs which they say can be used with stock shocks (prokit)?

That's a poor analogy. A better analogy would be "why do they sell Pro-Kit rear springs to go with the standard front springs or vice versa". Of course, you couldn't make that analogy, because they don't.

Also, the Pro-Kit springs are DESIGNED to work with the stock shocks, just like the Eibach rear swaybar is designed to work with the Eibach front swaybar. The Pro-Kit springs are designed for people who want to lower their car without spending too much and who aren't very demanding as far as handling is concerned. Having said that, they cannot disrupt the balance of the car. That's to be distinguished from their reduction of travel, which in turn can reduce composure on bad roads, comfort and the life of the standard shocks, which are designed on the presumption that they won't see so much compression in daily driving.

Eibach also make a more aggressive spring kit (I think it's called the Sportline), which is designed to go with more aggressive dampers.

[Chris_F]

If I was to decide that bigger swaybars and a strut brace are worthy mods to the Euro for my needs, I would be looking at more solid manufacturers (as far as engineering capacity, demonstrated expertise in tuning the Euro, and manufacturing quality are concerned), such as Honda (perhaps from the Type R), Mugen, Swift, Cusco etc. I know I'll have to pay more, but I have little doubt that I'll get better bang and piece of mind than with Whiteline.

A lot of what you just said has to do with your brand perceptions. If whiteline were charging $500 for their bar and it was black and shiny with gold embossing maybe your perceptions of that particular brand would change? - I really don't see how you claim to know the relative competencies of each of the firms you mentioned in relation to their "engineering capacity, demonstrated expertise in tuning the Euro, and manufacturing quality" - you percieve the japanese manafacturers to be better obviously but at the end of the day a great number of ppl on this forum have installed a whiteline swaybar and been very happy with the results IMO that's all that matters.

[yfin]

the fact that the Euro R in that picture does have a strut brace does not invalidate the presumption that strut braces are not ALWAYS of significant handling benefit, depending on other aspects of the chasis and suspension.

True - no argument but it does come stock on that car so I think it is safe to presume there is a handling benefit and it is not pure marketing.

Your cost argument doesn't explain why Mugen, which lives off selling performance UPGRADES for Hondas, doesn't see value in making swaybars or a strut brace for the Euro, especially given its demonstrated capacity to demand high premiums for its products from customers i.e. its capacity to pass on the cost to the customer PLUS make a substantial profit. It also doesn't explain why Honda Japan, Honda Europe and even Acura don't offer upgraded swaybars (or a strut brace in the case of Europe and japan) for the CL9, but they do offer the more expensive shocks and springs combination.

You focus too much on what Mugen is or isn't doing. Who really cares what they make for the CL9? And in terms of Honda - they do not appear to be huge on offering products to meet the 'aftermarket' buyers - for any of their cars.

By the way - Acura dealers sell Comptech parts in the USA for the TSX including a sway bar. If installed by the dealer it retains the Honda warranty. So Acrua does offer upgraded swaybars in USA - just not manufacturerd by Honda.

If I was to decide that bigger swaybars and a strut brace are worthy mods to the Euro for my needs, I would be looking at more solid manufacturers (as far as engineering capacity, demonstrated expertise in tuning the Euro, and manufacturing quality are concerned), such as Honda (perhaps from the Type R), Mugen, Swift, Cusco etc. I know I'll have to pay more, but I have little doubt that I'll get better bang and piece of mind than with Whiteline.

That's cool - rate a product without trying it and just buy JDM. I have nothing but respect for Whiteline and their products after trying the sway bar. They also have some great technical people who are very happy to help people looking to modify their cars.

This is a good thread - some healthy discussion. I am a little surprised though that people need convincing that a thicker rear sway bar is great for the road (not just the track). I haven't experienced any downsides with mine and certainly nothing detrimental to the "fine balance" of the car.

[aleksandrov]

A lot of what you just said has to do with your brand perceptions. If whiteline were charging $500 for their bar and it was black and shiny with gold embossing maybe your perceptions of that particular brand would change? - I really don't see how you claim to know the relative competencies of each of the firms you mentioned in relation to their "engineering capacity, demonstrated expertise in tuning the Euro, and manufacturing quality" - you percieve the japanese manafacturers to be better obviously but at the end of the day a great number of ppl on this forum have installed a whiteline swaybar and been very happy with the results IMO that's all that matters.

I am very well aware of Whiteline's manufacturing standards. I've been to their 'factory', I've had them do wheel allignments for me, and I've bought a rear sway bar and front and rear strut braces from them. I've read and seen plenty about the (non)approach to quality from their people. And I have enough general knowledge about cars and handling to safely conclude that any company which increases the rear swaybar diameter by about 25% or more yet retains the standard swaybar on a car with chasis balance as critically acclaimed as the Euro's is quite far from having a perfectionist approach to chasis tuning.

I've also read a few other people's experiences with Whiteline quality standards. I've had experience with genuine Honda build quality on various vehicles. I've also undertaken and completed extensive academic study of Japanese, Australian, American, German and international engineering and manufacturing standards, including those of the motor industry. I know that Australian and American standards are generally well below Japanese standards, and that even the Germans are behind the Japanese in many instances, especially when it comes to how much quality you get for each of your dollars.

I have a rough but sufficient idea of the relative development budgets of Whiteline and the Japanese manufacturers I've mentioned, including the volume of Honda tuning each of them undertakes. I've also discussed these matters with two very reputable people who specialise in repairing, rebuilding and reluctantly modifying Hondas, as well as one person who specialises in modifying Japanese cars for road and track. I might still be wrong, but my opinion will not be easily changed by one or two posters who not only are not 'expert' test drivers or automotive professionals, but who, more importantly, have failed to back their sweeping assertions with relevant comparative analysis and/or logical arguments. I'm sure you'll find that quite reasonable.

[yfin]

aleksandrov - fact is you have not tried these mods on your Euro. You don't even have your Mugen suspension yet. How about you reserve your judgement until you try it. And just because Mugen doesn't make something - it doesn't correlate to it being a waste of time for the road.

We are all just hacks here who enjoy our cars. No one I know here claims to be a professional road tester for McLaren or Ferrari. Some of us can comment, however, as to the impact of various modifications to our vehicles based on subjective opinion. That should be enough for most of us. Totally fine by me if you think a sway bar alone (no other suspension mods) is detrimental to the Euro on the road. Just try it first.

[aleksandrov]

aleksandrov - fact is you have not tried these mods on your Euro. You don't even have your Mugen suspension yet. How about you reserve your judgement until you try it.

What JUDGMENT would that be, exactly?

And just because Mugen doesn't make something - it doesn't correlate to it being a waste of time for the road.

Where did I say that it does? You are either reading my posts selectively to suit your pre-determined and overly personalised arguments or you are struggling with logical deduction.

To raise the prospect that A could be indicative of B and to give specific reasons for saying that is not the same as saying that A guarantees B.

[Chris_F]

this is just going around in circles guys

[aaronng]

Yeah. Time to close this thread before we have to call the fire brigade.

BTW, the TSX comes with a stock front strut tower bar exactly like the one in the CL7 pic. So it's put on in Japan by Honda, not by Acura. And the TSX was designed to be stiffer than the EuroR by 5%. Maybe they achieved that stiffness through the front tower bar and the thicker rear sway, so that they did not compromise ride quality through the use of stiffer springs.

Source: http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...ticle_id=75679

In a stunning reversal of Honda/Acura convention, I learned through speaking with Mr. Tsuto Sasaki (Chief Engineer and Deputy LPL responsible for the Body and Chassis of the TSX) that the suspension is actually 5% stiffer than the Japanese and European Accord Type R models.

[Chris_F]

there's also the argument that it's a marketing ploy. Generally the american market sees a car as "sporty" if the ride is noticeably firm. It may serve no real function other than that and also to cope with the TSX's extra weight?

[aaronng]

If it was a marketing ploy, then I would have expected them to use those flashy bars that you can actually see clearly when you open the hood. This one is such an understatement. Anyway, here are the TSX's front strut bar and rear sway dimensions from Acura's site:

Stabilizer Bars, diameter (front/rear)
25.4 mm x 4.5 mm tubular / 15.0 mm solid

[aleksandrov]

Yeah. Time to close this thread before we have to call the fire brigade.

BTW, the TSX comes with a stock front strut tower bar exactly like the one in the CL7 pic. So it's put on in Japan by Honda, not by Acura. And the TSX was designed to be stiffer than the EuroR by 5%. Maybe they achieved that stiffness through the front tower bar and the thicker rear sway, so that they did not compromise ride quality through the use of stiffer springs.

Source: http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...ticle_id=75679

Since when is there a Japanese and EUROPEAN Type R model? As far as I know, the Euro R is Japan only. Europe has an Accord S, which is not as sporty as the Euro R (I believe it has the same suspension as the regular Aussie Euro). So which model is the TSX 5% stiffer than? The Jap Euro R or the European Accord S? Could this guy have confused the CL9 with the CL7?

And the Euro R and TSX braces on those pictures don't look the same to me. The TSX seems to be a three-piece, with two end pieces welded to the main piece, while the Euro R looks like a one-piece.

Btw, I'm curious as to why Comptech and DC would make front strut braces for the TSX if it already has a factory brace. How much of a market could there be for that?