Standard Unleaded in Euro

[EuroAccord13]

1. This topic is about Regular Unleaded Petro (91RON) for the Euro...

2. Argument at hand can go both ways.

Taken from Repair.org...

Can higher octane fuels give me more power?

On modern engines with sophisticated engine management systems, the engine can operate efficiently on fuels of a wider range of octane rating, but there remains an optimum octane for the engine under specific driving conditions. Older cars without such systems are more restricted in their choice of fuel, as the engine can not automatically adjust to accommodate lower octane fuel. Because knock is so destructive, owners of older cars must use fuel that will not knock under the most demanding conditions they encounter, and must continue to use that fuel, even if they only occasionally require the octane.
If you are already using the proper octane fuel, you will not obtain more power from higher octane fuels. The engine will be already operating at optimum settings, and a higher octane should have no effect on the management system. Your driveability and fuel economy will remain the same. The higher octane fuel costs more, so you are just throwing money away. If you are already using a fuel with an octane rating slightly below the optimum, then using a higher octane fuel will cause the engine management system to move to the optimum settings, possibly resulting in both increased power and improved fuel economy. You may be able to change octanes between seasons ( reduce octane in winter ) to obtain the most cost-effective fuel without loss of driveability.
Once you have identified the fuel that keeps the engine at optimum settings, there is no advantage in moving to an even higher octane fuel. The manufacturer's recommendation is conservative, so you may be able to carefully reduce the fuel octane. The penalty for getting it badly wrong, and not realising that you have, could be expensive engine damage.


Source :Chevron.ca
What will happen if I use the wrong octane gasoline in my vehicle?

Using a gasoline with an Anti-Knock Index lower than that required by your vehicle will cause the engine to knock or, if the engine is equipped with a knock sensor, decrease the vehicle's power and acceleration. Using a gasoline with an AKI higher than that required by your vehicle will not improve its operation.



Not much of a read and I'm not standing on anyone's side... Basically, there are claims that using a higher RON than recommended will not lead to better performance and economy BUT if tuned efficiently to run on a higher RON will lead to better performance and economy....


Keep this debate friendly ya all or I will be forced to close this if I deem this to be "Unfriendly" of sorts....

CHEERS

[Mr_will]

1. This topic is about Regular Unleaded Petro (91RON) for the Euro...

2. Argument at hand can go both ways.

Taken from Repair.org...

Can higher octane fuels give me more power?

On modern engines with sophisticated engine management systems, the engine can operate efficiently on fuels of a wider range of octane rating, but there remains an optimum octane for the engine under specific driving conditions. Older cars without such systems are more restricted in their choice of fuel, as the engine can not automatically adjust to accommodate lower octane fuel. Because knock is so destructive, owners of older cars must use fuel that will not knock under the most demanding conditions they encounter, and must continue to use that fuel, even if they only occasionally require the octane.
If you are already using the proper octane fuel, you will not obtain more power from higher octane fuels. The engine will be already operating at optimum settings, and a higher octane should have no effect on the management system. Your driveability and fuel economy will remain the same. The higher octane fuel costs more, so you are just throwing money away. If you are already using a fuel with an octane rating slightly below the optimum, then using a higher octane fuel will cause the engine management system to move to the optimum settings, possibly resulting in both increased power and improved fuel economy. You may be able to change octanes between seasons ( reduce octane in winter ) to obtain the most cost-effective fuel without loss of driveability.
Once you have identified the fuel that keeps the engine at optimum settings, there is no advantage in moving to an even higher octane fuel. The manufacturer's recommendation is conservative, so you may be able to carefully reduce the fuel octane. The penalty for getting it badly wrong, and not realising that you have, could be expensive engine damage.


Source :Chevron.ca
What will happen if I use the wrong octane gasoline in my vehicle?

Using a gasoline with an Anti-Knock Index lower than that required by your vehicle will cause the engine to knock or, if the engine is equipped with a knock sensor, decrease the vehicle's power and acceleration. Using a gasoline with an AKI higher than that required by your vehicle will not improve its operation.



Not much of a read and I'm not standing on anyone's side... Basically, there are claims that using a higher RON than recommended will not lead to better performance and economy BUT if tuned efficiently to run on a higher RON will lead to better performance and economy....


Keep this debate friendly ya all or I will be forced to close this if I deem this to be "Unfriendly" of sorts....

CHEERS

oh.my....god. i am going to keep this in relatively restrained form so that noone has a cry...
i seriously cannot believe the mods here. are you all so sensitive that anything which could possibly be construed as not being super nice is sufficient for you to take action on?
asking for advice on something is an absolute waste of time if you cant actually take the advice (esp if it doesnt fit with what you think).

do you all not realise that people can have heated arguments without actually taking it to the stage of becoming angry/wanting to stab the other person? i mean just because someone says, for example "no youre completely wrong you obviously dont get it, learn about this first" doesnt mean they hate the other person, its not a personal attack, and noone should go and have a cry about it. seriously its lame

[Mr_will]

1. This topic is about Regular Unleaded Petro (91RON) for the Euro...

and btw youre wrong about this. it started out that way but quickly turned to being about the difference between running 95 and 98, in a car that recommends 95 minimum

[aaronng]

yes, running 98 octane when your recommended fuel is 95 (even if it was 95 minimum) will result in a decrease in power. As a result you'll most likely be revving higher, and thus using more fuel.

You also won't be able to get conclusive evidence from a dyno.

The two sets of results will be closer than the mean tolerance in a dyno run so any results you get will be void....

Where you gain/lose power will depend exactally on how the timing map is setup standard. If at one point the map is more advanced than MBTT (incredibly unlikely but i'll humour you) then you will see a HIGHER power. But for the rest part, you will see a lower power level everywhere.

If you are saying that the difference between using RON95 and RON98 is within the error of a dyno, then why are you so adamant that there is a loss of power if you yourself say that it is not measurable by the dyno (which is the only way to quantitatively measure torque and power of cars). You are contradicting yourself.

And you say that in order to reap the benefits of higher octane, you need to be able to advance ignition timing. Yes, that is true and yes, there is a limit up to which the ignition can be advanced. The Euro has VTC as well which advances cam timing. It has been done by Hondata on the K series engines that more cam timing allows more power to be extracted by the engine.

So while I am not saying that using RON98 on the Euro gives more power, I am saying that it is possible to remap the ECU so that ignition and cam timings are advanced so much that more power can be produced. In order to run the engine at that ignition and cam timing, RON98 is needed. RON98 does not give the engine power. It is the ability for the engine to advance ignition (which is what the monaro and K24 does) and cam (K24 though VTC) timing that gives power. As a consequence of the timings, you need RON98.

And BTW, A/F ratios, ignition and cam timings have been remapped for the K24 by Hondata (using PON93 which is RON96). They did not produce a large increase in peak power (about 3hp at roughly 7200rpm) but instead produced a fat chunk of power between 5000-7000rpm. At 6000rpm, the gain was 28.8hp. So it is the total opposite of your claims that through advancing the timing that you gain only at one optimum RPM point.
All the dynos you could possibly want from Hondata on the K24: http://hondata.com/reflash_tsx.html

Here is my sweeping statement of the day. On the Euro, using RON98 over RON95 does not give an added power boost. Higher octane rating does not give you added mileage. BUT! All the RON98 fuels in Australia are sold with the marketing point that the fuel is of higher density and hence has more energy per gram. If that is true, then that is why there are reports of added fuel mileage when using aussie RON98. BTW, I see the same mileage gains on a 2001 Astra as well not just the Euro. On the Astra, there is no appreciable gain in mileage when using RON95 over RON91. But there is a 50km benefit out of using 3/4 of a tank when using RON98 over both RON91 and 95. So it is not from the wizadry of the magic four letter word in the Honda engine but from the higher density fuel.

[Mr_will]

If you are saying that the difference between using RON95 and RON98 is within the error of a dyno, then why are you so adamant that there is a loss of power if you yourself say that it is not measurable by the dyno (which is the only way to quantitatively measure torque and power of cars). You are contradicting yourself.

And you say that in order to reap the benefits of higher octane, you need to be able to advance ignition timing. Yes, that is true and yes, there is a limit up to which the ignition can be advanced. The Euro has VTC as well which advances cam timing. It has been done by Hondata on the K series engines that more cam timing allows more power to be extracted by the engine.

So while I am not saying that using RON98 on the Euro gives more power, I am saying that it is possible to remap the ECU so that ignition and cam timings are advanced so much that more power can be produced. In order to run the engine at that ignition and cam timing, RON98 is needed. RON98 does not give the engine power. It is the ability for the engine to advance ignition (which is what the monaro and K24 does) and cam (K24 though VTC) timing that gives power. As a consequence of the timings, you need RON98.

And BTW, A/F ratios, ignition and cam timings have been remapped for the K24 by Hondata. They did not produce a large increase in peak power (about 3hp at roughly 7200rpm) but instead produced a fat chunk of power between 5000-7000rpm. At 6000rpm, the gain was 28.8hp. So it is the total opposite of your claims that through advancing the timing that you gain only at one optimum RPM point.
All the dynos you could possibly want from Hondata on the K24: http://hondata.com/reflash_tsx.html

ok ill deal with the errors one by one..

1. I am not contradicting myself by saying that there is a loss of power which is not measurable by a dyno. At worst, I would be unable to prove my point. Perhaps you dont know what contradiction is? Besides, my reasoning for the loss of power wasnt really backed up by the dyno results, because i dont have any, it was backed up by the fact that I understand how ignition systems work, and that when you use a fuel that burns more slowly(ie a higher RON), your ignition timing is not optimised for this thus you LOSE POWER

2. The euro has VTEC...not VTC.

3. Cam timing and ignition timing are the same thing, so stop discussing them like they are

4. I did not claim that "through advanced timing you gain only at one optimum rpm point" that is a blatant lie. Do not falsely quote me. If anything I would say that it makes a difference right across the rpm range, so what you said was just incredibly foolish.

[Banana]

I won't recommend that she do this as a long term solution to save petrol although I am pretty sure the Euro has a knock sensor...

Performance wise, there will definately be a drop in performance as the car was tuned to run on Premium....

I personally won't put Regular in and if I have to, I'll have a bottle of Octane booster handy ...

performance, performace. euro's aint made for performace mate, its a nice cruiser made by honda, why do u think they made ITR's and s2k's and NSX. and octane booster aint gonna work, coz of the stock ignition timing, ur just gonna stuff up the pistons anyways, octane booster are made for those imports that can run on 110RON and up. so dun waste ur money on those octane boosters, ur just paying to kill ur engines, unless u got ur ecu re-programmed for diff ignition timing

[aaronng]

Since you gave me the courtesy of giving your opinion on each of my point, it would be rude for me not to reciprocate. BTW, I don't have personal agendas. I'm just stating facts and info that people have tested. If you prove me wrong, I will admit that I am wrong.

ok ill deal with the errors one by one..

1. I am not contradicting myself by saying that there is a loss of power which is not measurable by a dyno. At worst, I would be unable to prove my point. Perhaps you dont know what contradiction is? Besides, my reasoning for the loss of power wasnt really backed up by the dyno results, because i dont have any, it was backed up by the fact that I understand how ignition systems work, and that when you use a fuel that burns more slowly(ie a higher RON), your ignition timing is not optimised for this thus you LOSE POWER

And I agree with your point IF the ECU cannot advance ignition timing sufficiently. And this is true of many cars. The Astra that I used to drive was specced for RON91. It could advance ignition timing for RON95 and it was stated in the manual that the power produced was higher. However, putting RON98 it in only gives the same power as RON95. So is the Astra's ECU map set for RON91 or RON95? Please answer this. The part I don't agree with regards to the Euro, I'll elaborate on the next point.

2. The euro has VTEC...not VTC.

The Euro has i-VTEC, which is VTEC and VTC. VTC is variable timing control, which is just the ability to rotate the intake camshaft thus giving letting the ECU advance cam timings by 25 degrees. This ability allows the Euro to advance timings to a larger degree than other cars using only ignition timing. This is why I believe that on the Euro, using RON98 will not result in an appreciable decrease in power. The ECU can advance ignition timings and if it is not enough, it will advance cam timings as well to accomodate. It won't make more power though because the fuel maps set for RON95.

3. Cam timing and ignition timing are the same thing, so stop discussing them like they are

I thought you said you were well researched on the topic of ignition systems! Ignition timing is the point at which the spark is produced by the spark plug, while cam timing is the points at which the intake and exhaust valves open and close. 2 totally different things!

4. I did not claim that "through advanced timing you gain only at one optimum rpm point" that is a blatant lie. Do not falsely quote me. If anything I would say that it makes a difference right across the rpm range, so what you said was just incredibly foolish.

You said:
Where you gain/lose power will depend exactally on how the timing map is setup standard. If at one point the map is more advanced than MBTT (incredibly unlikely but i'll humour you) then you will see a HIGHER power. But for the rest part, you will see a lower power level everywhere.

What I get here is that you said on the standard setup for the timing map, you get more power if the map is more advanced than MBTT at one point (which I assume point is RPM) and for the rest part (which is the rest of the RPM range) you will see a lower power level everywhere.

So you said it, not me.

[aaronng]

performance, performace. euro's aint made for performace mate, its a nice cruiser made by honda, why do u think they made ITR's and s2k's and NSX. and octane booster aint gonna work, coz of the stock ignition timing, ur just gonna stuff up the pistons anyways, octane booster are made for those imports that can run on 110RON and up. so dun waste ur money on those octane boosters, ur just paying to kill ur engines, unless u got ur ecu re-programmed for diff ignition timing

Uh, he said that he carried octane booster in case he could not find premium petrol and has to run instead on regular petrol.

[Mr_will]

I thought you said you were well researched on the topic of ignition systems! Ignition timing is the point at which the spark is produced by the spark plug, while cam timing is the points at which the intake and exhaust valves open and close. 2 totally different things!


arg conceeded - youll see that that sentence makes much more sense if you replace my can with a cant - i agree you are right that they arent, that is what i meant - otherwise why would i say "so stop discussing them like they are"

further points to come

[EuroAccord13]

oh.my....god. i am going to keep this in relatively restrained form so that noone has a cry...
i seriously cannot believe the mods here. are you all so sensitive that anything which could possibly be construed as not being super nice is sufficient for you to take action on?
asking for advice on something is an absolute waste of time if you cant actually take the advice (esp if it doesnt fit with what you think).

do you all not realise that people can have heated arguments without actually taking it to the stage of becoming angry/wanting to stab the other person? i mean just because someone says, for example "no youre completely wrong you obviously dont get it, learn about this first" doesnt mean they hate the other person, its not a personal attack, and noone should go and have a cry about it. seriously its lame

Reinforcing a reminder to keep it friendly, not taking a shot at you, who's the one always thinking everyone is against him??

Yes, I'm a mod but I am not taking side with anyone AS stated earlier... If you have an issue with me or any other mods, report it....

and btw youre wrong about this. it started out that way but quickly turned to being about the difference between running 95 and 98, in a car that recommends 95 minimum

Exactly my point.....

The euro has VTEC...not VTC.

Thought you will know that Euros have VTC....

[BiLL|z0r]

So in conclusion, don't run 91 RON in ya Euro (as that was the original question)

I think for the people that wanna run 95RON, do it, for the people that wanna run 98RON, do it. It's your car and put in it what you like. At the end of the day, this argument will never be finished (since we can't even prove it on a dyno).

[wynode]

I think for the people that wanna run 95RON, do it, for the people that wanna run 98RON, do it. It's your car and put in it what you like. At the end of the day, this argument will never be finished (since we can't even prove it on a dyno).

Well as stated by the manual you need to run 95RON fuel minimum.

But I think this a good discussion as the the use of 98RON fuel over 95 RON.