TOV 2006 TSX review

[Chris_F]

oh ok.. for some reason i thought it was the same as the euro, thanks for clearing it up

[aaronng]

Or maybe bump the K24A up to 180kw I mean the K20A can make 164kw, whats stopping the K24A from reaching 180kw+ ?

Because the K24A can't spin up to 8000rpm for extended periods.

[aaronng]

BTW, I have my HyperRev here. It was published in 2003. The Accord Wagon comes in FWD and 4WD. The FWD (LA-CM2) comes with the 2.4L 147kW engine. The 4WD (LA-CM3) comes with either the 2.4L 140kW engine or the 2.0L 118kW engine.

The Sedan on the other hand, FWD (LA-CL9) comes with the 2.4L 147kW engine, while the 4WD (LA-CL8) comes only with the 2.0L 112kW engine.

Imagine the possibilities of a 4WD Accord Euro with a K24A2 swap!

[aaronng]

i was sure that the Jdm and european accords had the k24a3's perhaps the a2 relates mostly to the 4.7 final drive? I'm pretty sure that the euroR final drive is 4.4... wonder why it didnt get the 4.7.

While the TSX's K24A2 comes with a 4.4 final drive, the gear ratios in the 6-speed is shorter to compensate.

Edit: OOOOOOPS super typo. I got it the other way around. Yes, TSX 4.7 final, longer ratios to compensate.

[Chris_F]

the TSX's final drive is 4.7

the AUDM accord euro final drive is 4.4

[driven]

Does someone who knows something about gear ratios care to interpret the differences in the TSX vs Euro gear ratios?

I suspect the TSX will have more aggressive gearing which raises the question as to whether a 2nd hand TSX gearbox will be a good mod for the Euro.

Euro
1st 3.533
2nd 1.88
3rd 1.354
4th 1.027
5th 0.825
6th 0.659
Reverse 3.583
Final 4.388

TSX
1st 3.267
2nd 1.880
3rd 1.355
4th 1.028
5th 0.825
6th 0.659
Reverse 3.583
Final 4.7

as chris says, 4.7!

[Chris_F]

can anyone provide some inormation as to how the Final Drive actually effects acceleration vs. reduction of speed in each gear and top-speed?

[twing]

K24A2 vs K24A3... According to this site:
http://www.theksource.com/news/04/k-...vtec-breakdown
A3 intake has 3 cam lobes, while exhaust has 2 cam lobes. It's like 12v - 16v config.
A2 has 3 cam lobes booth on intake and exhaust.

Has anyone open up their Euro's rocker cover see the cam lobes?
Very interesting to find out.

[EuroDude]

K24A2 vs K24A3... According to this site:
http://www.theksource.com/news/04/k-...vtec-breakdown
A3 intake has 3 cam lobes, while exhaust has 2 cam lobes. It's like 12v - 16v config.
A2 has 3 cam lobes booth on intake and exhaust.

Has anyone open up their Euro's rocker cover see the cam lobes?
Very interesting to find out.

Na Ive read thats wrong for our K24A3. Thats the U.S K24A3 (only 9.7:1 compression).
The Aussie/EU ones use 10.5 compression and are virtually the same as the TSX's K24A2 but slightly detuned to accomidate lower octane fuel.

Dunno why Honda must confuse everyone and make two different K24A3's
If anything, they should have stamped our engines as K24A2 or even K24A6

[Chris_F]

yep EuroDude is correct. the k24a3 mentioned in that article is not hte same k24a3 as in our cars. I'm sure the differences between the 03-05 tsx and 03-05 euros is predominantly in the tuning and differences in gearing.

[aaronng]

can anyone provide some inormation as to how the Final Drive actually effects acceleration vs. reduction of speed in each gear and top-speed?

A lower final drive (higher number) reduces the top speed in EACH gear. In compensation, you get more torque to the wheels and hence stronger acceleration. The top speed is reduced by doing multiplying your top speed in each gear with the old final drive ratio and then dividing with the new final drive.

new top speed = old top speed x old final drive / new final drive.

The actual amount of RPM drop when you change gears still stays the same as original. So for the Euro, RPM drops from 7200 to around 4800 when you shift 1st to 2nd. A shorter final drive won't change this. To change the RPM drop, you have to change the actual gear ratios.

Octane: The petrol required by the K24A2 is similar to the K24A3. K24A2 specifies 91 PON, while K24A3 specifies 95 RON. From a previous TSX thread, 91 PON is very very close to 95 RON.

[Omotesando]

Well, flat shifting on a Corolla Sportivo that had only 180 Nm did cause some damage to the driveline. The owner said that it was "loose" and gritty after that. That engine has less torque than the Accord Euro.

It's not because of the torque being linear. It's because of the speed of the clutch being released while the revs is about 2000 RPM above the next gear. Imagine when you shift from 1st to 2nd flatshifting. When you release the clutch at 7000rpm, your transmission speed is only about 4500-5000rpm in 2nd gear. That's 2000-2500rpm different and at the speed you're releasing your clutch, everything after the clutch (transmission, driveshaft, bearings, CV joints) is going to have to speed up. While the car is moving at about 60km/h, 2nd gear at 7000rpm is 100km/h. So everything is going to try to speed up to 100km/h, which is not possible. So your driveline will take a shock and if the tyres don't lose grip, the engine is also forced to jump back down from 7000rpm to 4500rpm. Even when not flatshifting, releasing the clutch fast during a 1-2 shift and applying throttle quickly after that will cause a very loud bang sound. That's the shock through the driveline.

Well as I already mentioned, you're purely speaking on relative terms here. You don't seem to be able to see the point I'm raising here and that is, on a linear torque delivery car with relatively lower torque figure, the damage you do to the drivetrain when you flatshift, isn't actually that damaging compared to other higher torque cars.

Your Corolla example with a lowish torque figure clearly shows this. It being subjected to numerous flat shifting sessions is certainly prone to be slightly damaged in the driveline somewhat and becoming loose - hell if you try hard enough you can break anything in the car. BUT IT IS STILL WORKING AND MOVING.. See my point?

The important point is that - if you try to do flat-shifting to a car with 350-400Nm of Torque, but more like closer to 400-500Nm of Torque such as the V8s or one with a massive turbo rush - the transmission and the drive shafts can just snap. You do it only ONCE, and it will already fail. On some cars, you can flat shift once in a while when you're trying hard to get some acceleration figures on the drag strip. On SOME cars with a high torque figure, you do not even want to try it once.


You said "It's not because of the torque being linear..."
In fact you're overlooking one things here by saying that, although slightly veering off into another topic:

1) If the torque delivery to the drivetrain ISN'T linear such as a massive turbo coming on boost hard or an All Wheel Drive launch going from zero torque to big torque in no time, the sudden torque difference is big enough to put a substantial load on the drivetrain components to be able to damage it permanently. It is similar to the V8 example above yet different, because in the V8's the torque delivery is very linear YET can still damage something when you put a shock thru the driveline.



But the biggest problem with your understanding of Flat Shifting is that you're over exaggerating it.


When you drive a car normally but to the redline, your foot will be coming off the 7000RPM or 7300rpm or so ANYWAY. At this time, you release the clutch and change gears but the engine in fact DOESN'T drop right back down to 4500-5000rpm as you said that is suitable for say 60km/h in 2nd gear. It is still hovering around the 7000rpm mark just dropping down a bit at a time, since at this particular point of time, there is no drivetrain connection (or drivetrain energy) that is pulling a massive engine braking.

With normal shifting, the faster you can complete the gear change properly, the less the engine rev will drop. It will NOT change towards 4500-5000rpm ready for 2nd gear at 60km/h in anycase by itself.


The difference between a really fast shift and a flat shift isn't that much. If you can complete flat shifting FAST enough without lifting off accelerator then good on you (that is maximum damage btw!) but the fastest drag time. But for most people who flat shift, in fact they cannot put their foot 100% down on the accelerator because if they can't shift fast enough and then to release clutch in the 0.2-0.3s time, your foot being flat on the pedal means the engine is going to hit the rev limiter which slows down everything.


The truth is, flat-shifting and 'normal but fast shifting' might only have 500rpm difference. The damage that can be done isn't just from flat shifting and at high rpm as you said because that is wrong. A very similar thing happens when you shift fast anyway.