Power FC for B18C2.

[integral90]

i truthfully dont think many people on this forum can answer this without bias because we just dont have the experience to differentiate between two technically. We just just all look and say this or that is better because it looks prettier or is cheaper or whatever. I have seen cars tuned by both and if the tuner knows his sh*t, then both turn out just as good as eachother, Power FC is a very powerful product and has proven itself many times over the years on many cars not just hondas. Its pretty much the ecu of choice for many rotary enthousiasts in the US and also heaps of 200sx owners have one too and i dont see too many complaints from whoever has one BUT, Hondata is also a proven product and has shown its worth over the years also, as it has been used in many pretty tough US drag cars and heaps of street cars world wide. IMO I would think they are much of a muchness and if you are going to get a ecu, get it based on what ur tuner is more experinced with not just which one looks like better value because it will probably bite you in the ass in the end and then if that happens there will be another thread coming up with some sh*t like 'my hondata/power fc is doing (insert whinge here) HELP' which will just add to confusion for everyone looking to invest in an ecu that hasnt already.

You cant just say one is better than the other because until now I havent seen a reason as to why one is 'better'. Its all just been standard internet bs, like i read on this website and i read on that website. None of us here are tuners and cant say accurately what is the better ecu.

I was looking for a long time before i decided what i got (decision isnt important just in case some people will say im biased) but i never saw any problems with either for my dc2r. anyway enough ranting

yay

[tinkerbell]

I've read and re-read what you wrote, and you've not been drawn into a technical debate, except to ask someone what i've just asked you...

well done for reading!

you will even note that i invited a technical comparison (based on "tunable points" - with Hondata clearly wining at 740 vs PowerFC at 400...) but no-one responded did they?

So on that basis, your argument for the PowerFC centres around value for money on OBD2 cars, and not on it being technically superior to the Hondata?

yes, if i were to be arguing for either product - "value for money" and the handcontroller/monitor device in my opinion are worth more to most users than launch control, full throttle shift, dataloging etc that the Hondata has...

All i have to base my conclusion on is the two PowerFC equipped cars i've seen from OzHonda

and re: your *conclusion*, i refer you to ALLMTR996's post above - it is the ECU is only as good as the tuner rationale (which i entirely agree with)...

so you might need to clarify whether the tuner who tuned your car was the same guy who tuned *insert user name here* - otherwise the info is fairly useless...


on a side note, i see you are reluctant to define tunability too? is it really that hard? or is it more that "tunability" is a myth?

[bennjamin]

that which i can see sofar is only this ~

a ECU is only as good as its tuner.

Can anyone here ( that isnt a reprasentative of HONDATA or close associate/owner) define how different the HONDATA and power FC really are ? OR are they different at all ?

[ginganggooly]

and re: your *conclusion*, i refer you to ALLMTR996's post above - it is the ECU is only as good as the tuner rationale (which i entirely agree with)...

so you might need to clarify whether the tuner who tuned your car was the same guy who tuned *insert user name here* - otherwise the info is fairly useless...


on a side note, i see you are reluctant to define tunability too? is it really that hard? or is it more that "tunability" is a myth?

While the tuner probably makes up the bulk of any difference between the results of the applications of various ECU’s, you can only polish up a turd so far –not to say that the PowerFC is a turd, but you get the point.

And yes, the tuner was different, however he’s widely regarded as being of the same caliber as DynoDave, (particularly in the Australian Honda scene) who tuned my car. I did mention this, and I’ll repeat it again, It’s not proof of superiority of one unit over the other, but it is food for thought.

The only compelling proof would be in the results of having the car tuned via Hondata, then swapped out and tuned, by the same tuner, with a PowerFC. I’m more than happy to donate my car and a Hondata S200 for this purpose, so if someone else comes to the party with a PowerFC, we can probably make something happen.

I'll not be drawn into a debate on the tunability of various ECU's, as i simply don't have the knowledge to comment on the subject. However, as you've mentioned that your research has led you to feel that the PowerFC is superior, I'd just like to know what your research is/was and what the result(s) of said research is/was. Seeing as you've highlighted that your research on the topic at hand, in the context of "tunability", led you to a particular conclusion, you must have some notion of what this mysterious phrase actually constitutes- in practical terms. So a little clarity there wouldn't go astray, and be appreciated, muchly.

[tinkerbell]

as you've mentioned that your research has led you to feel that the PowerFC is superior,

nope, never mentioned that, read again

i am up fro a PowerFC/Hondata swap - but who to pay for tuning?

i am sure the tuner in question (maybe Adrian/Dave/Jim) would say it is pointless anyways as the power curve/max power would probably "be fairly similar"...

but who knows? maybe that is too presumptious? maybe Hondata is the best, and no-one is telling us in an objective factual way?

you must have some notion of what this mysterious phrase actually constitutes- in practical terms. So a little clarity there wouldn't go astray, and be appreciated, muchly.

but with so many "criteria" to determine how it is the best - noone has been able to conclude one way or the other...

both have many pros, both have a few cons...

and how do you weight each of the pros and cons in order of importance?

is full throttle lauch more desirable than a hand controller?

maybe for a drag racer, buit not a daily driven street car?

and when determining "best", how does one factor in cost?

a few people above seem to think you would be a "tight ass" for considering this a important factor, but then again, those people making such comments usually are trying to sell a more expensive option...

and how much difference does less "tunable points" actually mean?

and what is the end goal?

MAX horsepower? best area under curve? smoothest idle? best fuel economy? least knock? best cold start? shortest tuning time?

now there is some *clarity* on my issues with people saying one ECU has better tunability than the other...

[tinkerbell]

Can anyone here ( that isnt a reprasentative of HONDATA or close associate/owner) define how different the HONDATA and power FC really are ? OR are they different at all ?

ben, i am doing up a comparison table to that point now... wont be too long...

[ginganggooly]

since i'm such a sick-ass tuner, i'll volunteer myself to tune the goods. I think we should use a different donor car though, i hear b20's are a good platform for testing of ecu's :P

but back on topic, my thoughts are that the more complete and therefore better ecu would have the better combination of smoothness, cold idle, power, datalogging and various other gadgets (launch control, full throttle shift etc).
personally, i see the hand controller as being of little value, as any changes i make to the tune of the car are going to be amateurish at best, and probably catastrophic. So, i'd be taking it to a tuner, who probably has the client required to tune it via one of those new fangled lap tops. Besides, unless you're changing something really simple, like rev-limit, or idle, wouldn't you require a wide-band O2 sensor and possibly a dyno?
What else does the hand controller allow you to do?

[tinkerbell]

What else does the hand controller allow you to do?

monitors:

ATFtemp - Autogearbox Logic Control
AirTemp - Air Temperature
Airflow - Airflow Meter Voltage
BatVolt - Battery Voltage
Boost - Boost Pressure (Bar)
Eng Rev - Engine RPM
GearPos - Autogearbox Logic Control
IgnT Ld - Ignition Leading
IgnTmng - Ignition Timing
IngT Tr - Ignition Trailing
InjDuty - Injector Duty
Knock - Knock Sensor
PimVolt - Map Sensor Voltage
Speed - Speed KM/H
Throttl - Autogearbox Logic Control
TorqCnv - Autogearbox Logic Control
WtrTemp - Water Temperature

warnings:

Airflow Warn - Airflow Meter Warning - 5v Peak (Engine check light)
Ij/Afl/Knk Wrn - Injector, Airflow and Knock Warning (Engine check light)
Inj/AirF Warn - Injector and Airflow Warning (Engine check light)
Injector Warn - Injector Warning (Engine check light)
Knock Warning - Knock Sensor Warning

also allows user changes to:

Inlet air temp fuel map
Water temp fuel map
RPM acceleration fuel map
Cranking Injector dwell map
Water temp versus boost fuel correction
Inlet air temp versus boost fuel correction
RPM Load Point table
AFM load point table
AFM voltage table
Ignition versus water temp correction
Ignition versus inlet air temp correction
Ignition dwell versus RPM correction
Ignition versus battery voltage correction
Ignition versus boost correction
Individual injector trim
Injector lag versus battery voltage correction

yes - potentailly catastrophic to be sure, but whoever is stupid enough to change something they are told they should not, is really responsible for their own outcomes...

[tinkerbell]

and to the B20 comment - is your OBD2a compatible or do we need a conversion harness? or a different ECU?

[bennjamin]

ben, i am doing up a comparison table to that point now... wont be too long...

myself amoungst many as the "little men" await such results

[tinkerbell]

but back on topic, my thoughts are that the more complete and therefore better ecu would have the better combination of smoothness, cold idle, power, datalogging and various other gadgets (launch control, full throttle shift etc).

but not really helpful is it?

since both ECU's can be made identical, then what do you say is the defining factor?

are under the curve? or price?

[ginganggooly]

monitors:

ATFtemp - Autogearbox Logic Control
AirTemp - Air Temperature
Airflow - Airflow Meter Voltage
BatVolt - Battery Voltage
Boost - Boost Pressure (Bar)
Eng Rev - Engine RPM
GearPos - Autogearbox Logic Control
IgnT Ld - Ignition Leading
IgnTmng - Ignition Timing
IngT Tr - Ignition Trailing
InjDuty - Injector Duty
Knock - Knock Sensor
PimVolt - Map Sensor Voltage
Speed - Speed KM/H
Throttl - Autogearbox Logic Control
TorqCnv - Autogearbox Logic Control
WtrTemp - Water Temperature

warnings:

Airflow Warn - Airflow Meter Warning - 5v Peak (Engine check light)
Ij/Afl/Knk Wrn - Injector, Airflow and Knock Warning (Engine check light)
Inj/AirF Warn - Injector and Airflow Warning (Engine check light)
Injector Warn - Injector Warning (Engine check light)
Knock Warning - Knock Sensor Warning

also allows user changes to:

Inlet air temp fuel map
Water temp fuel map
RPM acceleration fuel map
Cranking Injector dwell map
Water temp versus boost fuel correction
Inlet air temp versus boost fuel correction
RPM Load Point table
AFM load point table
AFM voltage table
Ignition versus water temp correction
Ignition versus inlet air temp correction
Ignition dwell versus RPM correction
Ignition versus battery voltage correction
Ignition versus boost correction
Individual injector trim
Injector lag versus battery voltage correction

yes - potentailly catastrophic to be sure, but whoever is stupid enough to change something they are told they should not, is really responsible for their own outcomes...

Does it log the data in the ECU/controller, or does it just return realtime values?

I don't see the point in the handcontroller for the myriad of other adjustments as the tuner would sit down with a laptop, with the proper software, as would the end user if they're serious about tuning.