KAAZ lsd versus Quaife ATB differential?

[e240]

i guess there is a difference between having a warranty, and having a product that just wont break....

Thats a tall claim - if that were the case, the Quaife wouldn't see the need to even put in exclusions, but they have. But having said that, I agree Quaife makes great LSDs - obviously their reputation preceeds them. But I am also confident to say that MFactory's LSD are on par with Quaife at a competitive price. I have not heard of any MFactory LSDs breaking when installed and maintained correctly - and all our LSDs are driven hard and used in Racing, Rallying and Drag.

i have a quaife, when it was getting installed, the mechanic said i was going to hate it. then he drove it and couldnt hear it, then i drove it and didnt even notice there was a change in the diff during normal driving. but under power it now spins 2 wheels predictibly, so he was certainly surprised compared to other noisy mechanical diffs he had used..

I'm typing this from memory at work :-p From your description above, it appears that you may not know the difference between the types of LSDs and why some are noisy and some not.

So, to understand the noise, you need to understand how the various LSDs work. There are typically 2 types of Mechanical LSDs.
A Torsen/Helical (also called ATB) or Clutch (Also called Metal Plate). Both work very differently and are designed to meet different purposes.

Torsen/Helical - MFactory Helical / Quaife
Clutch/ Metal - MFactory Metal / ATS

Torsen/Helical - These rely on a series of worm gears within the unit that lock or biase torque on acceleration (sensing torque) giving drive to both wheels. As these are just gears, they are quiet and relatively maintenance free (just the normal gearbox oil change required). They also don't need special oils and perform very well under majority of street driving conditions.

The disadvantage of these is that, in the event one wheel looses traction (i.e. especially with track driving where you ride kerbs and take short cuts through corners or could be as simple as one wheel loosing traction on a pool of water), the diff simply becomes an open diff with the power being transmitted to the wheel that has lost traction - No limited slip action. However, given that one typically does not drive 10/10s on the street, it is less of a concern.

So, summary:
1) Uses gears, so quiet and maintenance free
2) Fantastic for novice drivers and street use
3) Ok on track but will be out performed by the Metal LSDs


Clutch/Metal LSDs - These uses a series of clutches within the assembly to control slip. If slip is detected, the clutch within the unit will slip (hence the knocking noise) and enable the non slipping wheel to continue driving (instead of all power going into the slipping wheel). This mechanism will still allow the LSD to work when one wheel has lost grip althogether, unlike the helical, but the disadvantage is 1) Noise (from the slipping) 2) Wear (obviously - uses clutches) 3) Needs special oils.

As such, these tend to be used by more serious cars and drivers where performance outweighs any of the inconveniences.

So, Summary:
1) Clutch, Noisy
2) Requires maintenance - wear rate dependent on usage
3) Fantastic for hard core drivers where every little bit counts!

The Clutch/Metal LSD can further be divided in to 1 way, 1.5 Way and 2 Way. The best for a FWD is a 1.0, where being more understeer prone, no lock on decel allows better controllability of the car. 1.0 way is also good for someone who has never used a metal lsd before because the bit can be overwhelming.

In summary, I think all FWDs need an LSD - if you have never driven a car with an LSD, you should try - it makes the car heaps safer.

[Bludger]

Thats a tall claim - if that were the case, the Quaife wouldn't see the need to even put in exclusions, but they have. But having said that, I agree Quaife makes great LSDs - obviously their reputation preceeds them. But I am also confident to say that MFactory's LSD are on par with Quaife at a competitive price. I have not heard of any MFactory LSDs breaking when installed and maintained correctly - and all our LSDs are driven hard and used in Racing, Rallying and Drag.



I'm typing this from memory at work :-p From your description above, it appears that you may not know the difference between the types of LSDs and why some are noisy and some not.

So, to understand the noise, you need to understand how the various LSDs work. There are typically 2 types of Mechanical LSDs.
A Torsen/Helical (also called ATB) or Clutch (Also called Metal Plate). Both work very differently and are designed to meet different purposes.

Torsen/Helical - MFactory Helical / Quaife
Clutch/ Metal - MFactory Metal / ATS

Torsen/Helical - These rely on a series of worm gears within the unit that lock or biase torque on acceleration (sensing torque) giving drive to both wheels. As these are just gears, they are quiet and relatively maintenance free (just the normal gearbox oil change required). They also don't need special oils and perform very well under majority of street driving conditions.

The disadvantage of these is that, in the event one wheel looses traction (i.e. especially with track driving where you ride kerbs and take short cuts through corners or could be as simple as one wheel loosing traction on a pool of water), the diff simply becomes an open diff with the power being transmitted to the wheel that has lost traction - No limited slip action. However, given that one typically does not drive 10/10s on the street, it is less of a concern.

So, summary:
1) Uses gears, so quiet and maintenance free
2) Fantastic for novice drivers and street use
3) Ok on track but will be out performed by the Metal LSDs


Clutch/Metal LSDs - These uses a series of clutches within the assembly to control slip. If slip is detected, the clutch within the unit will slip (hence the knocking noise) and enable the non slipping wheel to continue driving (instead of all power going into the slipping wheel). This mechanism will still allow the LSD to work when one wheel has lost grip althogether, unlike the helical, but the disadvantage is 1) Noise (from the slipping) 2) Wear (obviously - uses clutches) 3) Needs special oils.

As such, these tend to be used by more serious cars and drivers where performance outweighs any of the inconveniences.

So, Summary:
1) Clutch, Noisy
2) Requires maintenance - wear rate dependent on usage
3) Fantastic for hard core drivers where every little bit counts!

The Clutch/Metal LSD can further be divided in to 1 way, 1.5 Way and 2 Way. The best for a FWD is a 1.0, where being more understeer prone, no lock on decel allows better controllability of the car. 1.0 way is also good for someone who has never used a metal lsd before because the bit can be overwhelming.

In summary, I think all FWDs need an LSD - if you have never driven a car with an LSD, you should try - it makes the car heaps safer.

the stock LSD on the dc2r is also a torsen/helical unit?

[mocchi]

the stock LSD on the dc2r is also a torsen/helical unit?

ek9/dc2r is helical

[bennjamin]

ek9/dc2r is helical

That is , mechanical / geared and requires no special extra fluid/s.

[Bludger]

So, what would be the advantage (if any) if the dc2r/ek9 had a Quaife LSD installed??

[bennjamin]

So, what would be the advantage (if any) if the dc2r/ek9 had a Quaife LSD installed??

well for one , different torque application to the standard honda torsen unit.

The EK9/DC2R unit is a 1 way LSD that only locks on acceleration.

You can get any type from Quaife ( and others) 1 , 1.5 and 2 way for example

[90LAN]

try a cusco lsd
used for years never had a problem

[Bludger]

Cusco is helical or clutch?

[ZeForce]

Cusco is helical or clutch?

I think it's a clutch type.... can someone confirm?

[SPEEDCORE]

Cusco = Clutch pack.

They usually have two versions, one that is a bit more friendly in its bite in the initial lock up, and then the other version that locks quite agressively straight away.

I had the agressive cone plate one in my 86.... was fun and clunky... Cusco "MZ" I think it was.

[autocross civic EG 6]

I have a Kaaz 1.5 way LSD in my competition Civic EG6. These are used extensively in rally developed Civics here and overseas. .Have a look at the differential specs for EG6 rally cars advertised for sale in the UK ,Ireland etc and you will see what I mean. They are designed without any compromise for comfort and are intended solely for competition .(to give maximum traction in the widest range of circumstances.) The down sides should not worry you if you are a serious competitor. These include serious kick back and noisy chatter at low speeds and the need for some ongoing maintenance. (I have just purchased a spare clutch pack for a cost of about $395 although at the moment there is no need to fit it). If you want to be competitive you also have to adopt a certain driving style (on gravel at least) or you will quickly have a big accident. I have to left foot brake most of the time to kick the back out and make the car turn in otherwise it will understeer straight on into the scenery. Although I have not used a 2 way Kaaz diff I understand understeer is even more of an issue.
You should note that literature supplied with the diff by Kaaz states that they are not intended for use on public roads. I suspect in many cases they might make your car technically unroadworthy .If you have insurance it might also be negatively impacted.
Steve

[MFactory]

well for one , different torque application to the standard honda torsen unit.

The EK9/DC2R unit is a 1 way LSD that only locks on acceleration.

You can get any type from Quaife ( and others) 1 , 1.5 and 2 way for example

There is no difference in "torque application" between an oem ITR Torsen Differential, and the Quaife ATB Differential. Both have the same bias ratio to transfer torque. The only difference between the two is in the manufacturing of the units i.e The OEM will start to see it's limit around 400whp, then go boom

The ITR unit is not a 1 way LSD. "way" is solely reserved for Plate Type LSD's that lock; an ITR unit is not a Plate Type and does not lock.

Infact, a gear type differential is not even a true LSD (Limited Slip Differential), they are Torsens' (Torque Sensing Differentials). The word LSD (in relation to Torsens') is used purely for marketing.