ah ic... i think i need to do more research lol.
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ah ic... i think i need to do more research lol.
Yeah the Bisi Header is the Sha-zizzle alright.He's got one that allows you to keep aircon too.It can be ordered off him through 'd-series.org'.His Username is 'bisimoto'.costs about $800 ish...
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l2...2/DSC00769.jpg
Here's what he has to say about his header:
Here
yep, thats the header. according to most calculation programs, 25 inches is how long the primaries need to be for maximum power in a car, but due to inefficiencies in reality, bisimoto found the primaries needed to be 35inches +. thats why it has an unusual design, but the power gains speak for themselves.
It just looks so damn sexy too!!! hehehe
oh and if i remember correctly, its what you dont see that helps it perform well. from what i hear, there are numerous different diameter pipes used in the construction to create anti reversion steps to improve power and flow. and the flow speed through the extractors in a d series motor has been measured at around 0.7-0.8+ mach
Quote:
Originally Posted by beeza
those look awesome !!!
that looks sweeeeet.... maybe i shall do my uni thesis on the flow within that header... looks awesome!
yeh those headers are awesome... i also would like bisimoto headers.
they are made for top end drag racing. Nothing else. Not for a daily car.
they do look hot tho.
the problem with oz d-series turbo owners is they are all shit
drivers...
if u r a good driver or really into driving/racing, you will eitehr not
bother with dseries or quickly move on to something else that's much
better and sexier...
That's why we don't see any decent times from the D...
^^ sounds like a intelligent guy... lol :rolleyes:
time for you to listen and learn...
um wrong... its simply ozhonda people think that there are no other hondas in australia outside of ozhonda...
I thought the reason that Dturbos never ran good times was because the setups were crap and made no power? now your saying its because all the drivers are shit... maybe you should tell that to dan...
Eksedan nonvtec standard head built bottom end... Fark really shit driver
http://i32.tinypic.com/vjmde.jpg
time for u to shut the f*ck up LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by EURON8
Yeah :pQuote:
Originally Posted by d15z1SUX
LOL at this commentQuote:
Originally Posted by EURON8
yes... u get these kinda people that jus talk nonsense and make a fool of themselves, good example is EURON8 here :cool: .. keep going EURON8 :thumbsup:, people like u make my day lols
wtf 12 second quarter mile with a non vtec ek? kseries boys with $20000 engines wont be happy about this.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexc86
ahahahahaha!!!!
actually theyre not made for top end. pure top end is pointless for drag racing. as i mentioned, they use 35+ inches of primaries, which hits all resonance points required to make more power throughout the entire rev range. you can compare dyno charts on factory motors with diff extractors, and you can see the difference. the only thing better would be a properly tuned length tri-y header.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
and its not unusual to see non-tec motors perform better than vtec motors, some non-tec heads have recorded better flow rates. plus, single cam motors have less valvetrain mass which improves response and power.
had my engine tuned, something seems wrong because it only mustered up 80fwkw with factory carbs and factory cam gear. but im not too disappointed, because it makes 70kw from 2800rpm to peak power of 80kw at 7000rpm, which makes it fun to drive. managed a 15.0-15.2 second pass on street tyres, and the response is useful for circuit. should be faster once i get some better tyres on it.
yeh well dont bring K series into this... or the fellas that support them... we know where that leads. As the thred is stated "lets talk Dseries"
That car was built before my time... and is all long gone and parted off now...
But at end of the day... Aussie built and raced.. results speak for themselves
Just a thought ~ You dont spend time in the middle of any gears its all out acceleration down a straight line for 400 meters for drag racing , which these headers are designed for. Correct me but no track setups use this particular header for D series (or B series or F or H etc) - my point of my post :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SeverAMV
The bisimoto , is of no need for a D series engine daily driven.
as i mentioned, theyre not designed for top end only, they make more power across the entire rev range, more than 4-2-1 extractors.
and yes, you do spend time in the middle of the rev range in a 400m drag race, as you do upshift, and revs do drop (unless you drive a miracle car). d series gearboxes arent as well spaced out as b series, the gears arent as close as they could be so the midrange is required.
most track setups use what their sponsors donate, i am yet to see bisi sponsor track cars, so obviously no track cars use it. its due to sponsorship, not because people dont want to use it and not because you claim it only makes power in the top end. bisi prefers and specialises in drag racing. as well, you need nice power throughout the rev range for a good launch. if you have poor bottom end, your launches wont be as quick, which will affect performance throughout the lap as launches are half the game of drag racing, you screw up the launch, and you essentially screw up the time.
some of the dyno charts from people using it show 17-20hp gains across the entire rev range which imo is pretty darn useful for daily driven vehicles.
and nothing is of any need to a daily driven engine, you dont need extractors, exhaust, intake, or any power mods for that matter. but you still want them, dont you?
[QUOTE=Sexc86;1707493]um wrong... its simply ozhonda people think that there are no other hondas in australia outside of ozhonda...
I thought the reason that Dturbos never ran good times was because the setups were crap and made no power? now your saying its because all the drivers are shit... maybe you should tell that to dan...
Eksedan nonvtec standard head built bottom end... Fark really shit driver
ffs guys can you ppl think with a bit of fexibility in your brain?
when ppl say Australians are friendly it does not mean we don't have any
crims or thugs here...
same goes by my statement...and stop shooting yourself in foot again,
you just said it was "all long gone and parted off now" and what did i
say before?
"if u r a good driver or really into driving/racing, you will eitehr not
bother with dseries or quickly move on to something else that's much
better and sexier..."
so think before you type buddy, don't spit out silly comments and
examples that will only reinforce your opponents arguement.
and to the rest of you ppl here, think of something constructive to say
b4 jumping out without anything to back you up...
just because you are a disaster D loser that doesn't run the time or
make the power or both, it doesn't mean you can take out your
frustration and tell other ppl to shut up...
Heck yes my friend. Why ? Because i dont have AC or PS and can accommodate such a header in my engine bay. Who cares what power it makes it looks too dam cool. Find me one for a B series.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeverAMV
[QUOTE=EURON8;1712690]hey man dont discriminate haha...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexc86
[QUOTE=EURON8;1712690]Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexc86
LOL... It was parted off and sold not because of disapointment. i dont think i would be unhappy with a low 12? So useing your reasoning... people who are selling their B and K series cars... does that mean they are not happy with them?... i doubt it.
Your a ****in homo... you got no rep on this forem, you have built nothing and got nothing behind your name (probably because your some faggot who doesnt have the balls to make hateing posts under their REAL account)... yet you judge me without even meeting me... and my setup before its even in my car... or maybe you dont have the intellegience to READ and COMPREHEND where my build is.... you tell me how i am supposed to run my car while its in parts?....hmmmm.... OH WAIT!!! That makes me FULL of EXCUSES!!
Now for your ****ING INFO.
internally stock d15b7, stock fuel system, 19s + street tyres, Full street trim + stereo, ****ed clutch 105wkw 14.5 99mph 2.360foot
**** OFF... Dont Tell me this shit that i dont run my car.
This is what my short block made in the usa. If you wanna have a Bitch and whing. How about email sean from ERL-performance in the USA and tell him what you think.
http://www.erlperformance.com
http://i5.tinypic.com/66wv8le.jpg
PS. I Lyle 100% admit that there are differences between USDM and AUDM HP rates. I no way am i saying that my car in specific will make these exact numbers.
Just a random question, But how many D-series owners would be interested in alloy radiators? I am currently in the process of working with a couple of different radiator companies based in both vic and nsw to make a couple of prototypes.. These could be used by B-series owners obviously..
I realise that you can go and buy them from overseas companies but i thought that it would be good to get an australian company on board... Just wanted to see how much interest there would be.
Also let me know if there already are aus manufactures as i dont know of any..
[QUOTE=EURON8;1712690]Watch out man. Dan has now moved onto a RWD Nissan. Like most people who have any skill or desire in the area. FWD isnt for drag, track or street. Its a inferior platform used to cut production costs. SIMPLE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexc86
This tool thinks an engine makes a car. FI D-B-K will make the same power (to a certain point). The point is, people with the money for a hi-end setup opt for a platform that is more popular. Simple. They dont want spend money on R&D. They dont want to fabricate parts. They dont want to have to special order pistons everytime they melt. So people tend to follow the MASSES and re-produce proven results. Its not a bad way to race, it makes economical sense! But to call yourself better then another person because you run a more popular, efficent setup. Well, thats narrow minded holden talk.
Lyle, you shouldnt bother refuting. What would u say if i posted a 2jz dyno graph making 1000kW. You wouldnt care right? Cause its not ur passion?
EURON8 is just another narrow minded follower. His opinion holds zero regard in any forum. On any topic. Letting him get under ur skin is just dumbing yourself down to his level.
Ben; D-series engines require a little more work then others to attain a good powerband. The the limited selection of of gearings availible, the header must perform well from 4000-8500rpm. Area under the curve.
weq convince jesse to sell me your old engine he wont do it for cheap, and im poor :(
He makes one for the b!!!! :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
He is taking orders now:
http://bisimoto.com/wst_page6.html
and a 'new generation Bisimoto headers will soon be available for Honda D, F, K and H series powerplants.' COOL!! :D
EURON8> Piss Off like yr name suggest buddy, This is a thread for talking D-series, not bagging it out.
Anything is possible. I know of old datto's with their 30 yo engines producing way more power than the later SR series motors, and as much as any B series engine oput there, so it just depends how good you are at building and tuning, not what platform you have.
RANT OVER.
:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by EDCivicPunk
[QUOTE=Sexc86;1713193]haha calm down buddy, what is wrong with you? I made a generalised postQuote:
Originally Posted by EURON8
describing the general turbo d scene here which was not directed atanyone, and you are full jumping up and down and taylored yourself to suit exactly the type of people I was describing.
And why do I have to build anything to prove myself? This is ozhonda,
not ozbuiltbohonda.com. I have seen the Honda scene long enough and I've
got heaps of mates doing conersions and turbos and for myself I am just
happy with my Euro which smooth, comfy, goes ok and has a K!!! hahaa
When did I ever say other people were disappointed? I said good drivers
or people who are into driving/racing will move on to something better
and sexier, and apparently they sold their D and moved on and you
obviously are not one of them.
When did I ever say people don't run their cars, I just said "the
problem with oz d-series turbo owners is they are all shit drivers"...
and look at your quote "14.5 99mph 2.360foot"...ummmmm...WOW.
Why would I want to contact the States to verify anything? I never said
they don't make the power or run the time. I've always been talking
about the OZ scene.
So let me ask you again to use your brain to read, think, comprehend and
re-read and re-think before making any stupid, uneducated and unrelated
comments that will only put yourself in a deeper hole.
Lastly I am not a hater, have you ever seen Kseries owners hating on a D?Get real buddy. Oh one more thing, you are not special enough for me
to judge on you, you are just a pretentious turbo D princess that wears fake angel wings and running around in your own little palace.
[/QUOTE]Watch out man. Dan has now moved onto a RWD Nissan. Like most people who have any skill or desire in the area. FWD isnt for drag, track or street. Its a inferior platform used to cut production costs. SIMPLE.[/QUOTE]
And I appreciate that you are a broadminded tool. Not for street huh? I
presume you are saying street racing, how does it feel to have a twin
turbo 350z ripped by a K20A EG?
[/QUOTE]This tool thinks an engine makes a car. FI D-B-K will make the same power (to a certain point). The point is, people with the money for a hi-end setup opt for a platform that is more popular. Simple. They dont want spend money on R&D. They dont want to fabricate parts. They dont want to have to special order pistons everytime they melt. So people tend to follow the MASSES and re-produce proven results. Its not a bad way to race, it makes economical sense! But to call yourself better then another person because you run a more popular, efficent setup. Well, thats narrow minded holden talk.[/QUOTE]
I can bench press as much as Ronnie Coleman to a certain point. What is
your point? Reading through your old posts, initially they seem to make
sense and have won you a few junior fans, however when going deep down
they are flawed, superficial, discriminative, lack of substance and
one-dimensional.
And I really believe your heavy weight opinions across the forums
through out the world on any topics are so valuable that hold as much
weight as your ballsacks.
And again I'd like to stress, do you forumers READ? All I am doing is
pointing out the truth which is the lack of achievement from Turbo D that mainly stems from the owners themself. This is hard, cold fact. If you'd like to dispute otherwise, please back yourself up.
I never said which engine is better or has more potential or which one
you should be running.
All D B H F & K can make decent power and has been proven again and
again. However to make it perform it's all in the owner's hand.
F**k this sh!t.
I started this thread so we can all about the d.Quit this BS!
Quote:
Originally Posted by beeza
Agreed... :thumbsup:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxer
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
I'm booked on the 11th
lets see how we go then :eek:
First run ever though so don't expect to much lol
Is that the 1/4 mile Luke?
Yup CharQuote:
Originally Posted by beeza
Mate, im sorry, but does it really matter if anything is achieved? - ie. a good time slip? If the owner gains satisfaction and enjoyment from their car and build process, then i believe it is definitely worth it. I have a B swapped car, but i would still happily rock a turbo D any day.Quote:
Originally Posted by EURON8
I dont understand why people think they are a king and can talk down on other car enthusiasts. At the end of the day, we all share the same passion for what we do, regardless of whatever avenue we choose.
Im sorry brett for having a say, but ive had enough of the haters of the D series.
Luke - good luck for the run mate :thumbsup:
LOL @ EURON8 ~ bro u have too much time on ur hands. go have a waank or somthing and leave the thread how it should be.
Ok,cool.It's all said and done now.Please don't retaliate EURON8.
Awesome Luke,I'm excited 4 ya mate!
and nervous....hehehe
good point, I aplologize and I will stop..Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexx
and off to wank now hhhaha
Sa weeeeeet :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by beeza
Yeah man can't wait
Hope I don't get to excited and drive straight into the wall :p
ahahaha,nah I'm sure your very comfortable in your car :)
It's such a relaxed and easy going occasion.After the first run all I was thinking about was going better the next run,nothing else.Just you and your car vs time WOOT WOOT!!!
If you can get Video that would be great.
I apologies all nuteral people for my next post but it has to be said.
Quote – “I never said which engine is better or has more potential or which one you should be running”
Yes you have...
Quote - "mite as well get a b16a and change an air pod and run the same
Quote – “Lastly I am not a hater, have you ever seen Kseries owners hating on a D? Get real buddy. Oh one more thing, you are not special enough for me to judge on you, You are just a pretentious turbo D princess that wears fake angel wings and running around in your own little palace.”
If you’re not a Hater, you’re definitely not a supporter or someone that gives people encouragement, then what are you?
Quote "another fine example of turbo Disaster..."
There you go, strait from your mouth, a Kseries owner hating on a D.
I see plenty of people every day putting hate on others. Rather then concentrating on their OWN goals and achievements. Sounds pretty real to me. Nice one... "Fake angel wings", a lot of shit has been thrown at me over the years but nice to see people got some new material and aren’t sounding like "broken records" any more. I don’t give a shit what people think or how they want to go about it. But when I see wankers such as you, making unprovoked attacks on others, I will open my mouth and speak my mind.
Quote - "And why do I have to build anything to prove myself? This is ozhonda, not ozbuiltbohonda.com. I have seen the Honda scene long enough and I've got heaps of mates doing conersions and turbos and for myself"
You can learn knowledge, but you can only EARN Wisdom & Experience.
Think about that next time before you go posting your outspoken opinions.
The reason that John (weq) has a respectable reputation that precedes him is because not only does he have knowledge, experience and wisdom (I assume you do know the difference?) but also he HAS put his knowledge into practise (unlike yourself as you just stated) set paths and benchmarks in Australia. He was out researching and experimenting by boosting his Honda way before most clowns in Australia could figure out to install a pod filter let alone a turbo-charger. He is an innovator, not a follower and his cars speak for themselves. Unlike a bullshit artist like you, who’s hands on experience goes as far as “I've got heaps of mates doing conersions and turbos”
You are making an incorrect assumption that if someone sells their car, it means they are unhappy with it somehow? Yes some may upgrade to a better platform, but others just sell up because they have achieved their goals and want to try something different... weather it be a different platform, or simply putting their cash into different things? Travelling / real-estate etc
I’m Glad you’re happy with your Euro. Like you I am happy with my ride, It’s a 1 off unique car in the world. It has a engine setup that cost me close to nothing, that’s lasted me 5 years, that runs times that (IMO and what I have witnessed) Dc2r's and Dc5r's
Cannot even run in STOCK form... and STILL has room for improvement. (as you would know a 99MPH being a high Trap speed for a low ET of 14.5 and 2.3 60foot being quite slow off the line – not due to bad driving.. but a combination of excess weight and clutch in poor condition)
Quote - When did I ever say people don't run their cars, I just said "the
problem with oz d-series turbo owners is they are all shit drivers"...
and look at your quote "14.5 99mph 2.360foot"...ummmmm...WOW.
What are you comparing it to? If you had so much experience like you say... you would know that a ET maybe a decent achievement for car "A" (Example - 14sec for 100WKW Civic)... but maybe a poor achievement for car B (Example - 14sec for 300KW GTR).
For my car and what it is (nothing special... for the moment) that is a good time, IMO
Would you care to put any times up from your Kseries Euro?
So first you Flame because Setups are shit and make no power... then you turn around and say
Quote "the problem with oz d-series turbo owners is they are all shit drivers"...
(If this is the case, I highly doubt you could put a different driver in my car have have them run better ET's then me). That is also judging people personally without even meeting them. Which again you have said apparently you don’t do and they “aren’t special enough”
Then you conclude with the statement.
Quote "lack of achievement from Turbo D that mainly stems from the owners themself This is hard, cold fact. If you'd like to dispute otherwise, please back yourself up”
Sounds like you’re just manipulating your words to give out different msgs. Why don’t you have a think and decide your views... Make your statement... And stand by it?
I have already posted 2 exhibits for you. (A 500hp dyno graph& 12sec Time slip) what more do you want? I believe there is yet another in the forced induction room
* Lukes Greddy internally stock 130wkw d16y1.
Not to mention
* Johns (NerV) Eg hatch in Brisbane, D16y1 140wkw 10psi (email Dyno-Dave if you want verification).
Or perhaps
* Johns (weqs) oldskool 200wkw+ D16y1,
* Dans (beastcivic) 200wkw+ D16y4 (from time slip above),
* John lee (A.S.C Drag) 11sec 200wkw+ D16a8 Gen 2 CRX (owner of CRXaustralia.com)
You make statements like
Quote - “read, think, comprehend andre-read and re-think before making any stupid, uneducated and unrelated comments that will only put yourself in a deeper hole”
Yet you cannot seem to accept evidence staring you right in the face answer the focal point of your entire argument. You are just another common Whinger/hater/flamer that plagues this site. Who owns a stock car, Full of naïve biased uncreditable assumptions with no hands on experience about MODIFYING, which makes the backbone of Ozhonda.
Regards Lyle
MSN Draper_Ebay@hotmail.com
PS. Its Extremely easy to click “ Private Message”
Good point Lyle.
KEep the hate to pm or just OUT of OZhonda.
Respect to those out there with HONDA's. Who cares what engine you run as long as you RUN IT.
PS i got a turboed D coming along to SYD OZhonda meet. Hope he can get into something decent to represent :)
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91376
Or I'll hit a wall :pQuote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
I start $5 bucks for the pool for wall action :)
wall FTW.
BTW Luke and others...be there after 4.30pm and before 6pm plz !
I promise everyone in this thred... that will be my last post on the topic, and regardless of what responce i get it will be continued via PM... if needed
very well said...
actually....
I couldnt have said it better myself lyle. good on ya for taking a stand.
full respect!
dammit i missed going to the meet (wait was it 2nite? or nxt wk? last wk of uni has totally fkd my senses up)
missed seeing the d series turbos.. gah... nxt month i guess... :(
ahahahahaaaa Bender,I mean Dahon hahahaha!!!!!!
hehehe bender is king! lolz
go the D!
but i decided not to tweak/do anything to the car nemore..
time to save for another project... hehehe
hey sorry guys, don't really know much about the d-series and i tried to search but couldn't find much info. I used to own a dohc non vtec 93 civic si, and now i own a ek4, which is dohc vtec, i find the low end power feels very similar. Would it be possible to swap a vtec head into the d16a8/zc from say the d16 sohc??
if so how similar would the power/torque graphs be to a b16? sorry if this is a stupid question i just got curious
WOAH WOAH WOAH MY BAD i just realised my error. the heads wouldn't line up sohc and dohc MY BAD. sorry
Where going this Wed 11 :pQuote:
Originally Posted by dahon
EURON8:
Got a bit of split personality havnt we? Your probably a bit confused under which alias your posting under at this point in time, right?
My cars are built for street. I dont like drag racing. I dont like track racing. Driving doesnt interest me at all. its my belief you teach a monkey to drive and brake, given enough seat time. My main interest is the mechanics of cars.
I dont talk. I just do. Thats why people listen to my posts. Cause they know im not some internet warrior. When i was into the honda scene, i would be the first one to most meets, the last one to leave. i chatted with anyone who would listen. And most people rode in my creations. Not just talked about them.
But now im jaded. And hate on anyone and everyone.
Hey guys,
i jst bought new headers for my EG Vti Hatch..
DC sports 4-2-1 one piece..
does it matter that the hole for the oxygen sensor isnt located at the top like my stock 2 piece headers?
feel free to shed some light..
lol it is a D series sohc vtec, if that helps..
alright sweeeeeetQuote:
Originally Posted by Lukezen27
ill see if i can go then.. hehehe
I would really be upset if I watched you become a bitter person Weq.You got too much to be proud of mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Weq
The best place for an oxygen sensor is where all the collectors merge into 1,therefore it's reading all 4 cylinders,not 1 or 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by B147ch
I meant to say the 11th wednesday but Bender was mesmarising me hehehe
true true, but its only a one piece. so you think extending the wire for the o2 sensor is best way to go about this?
Definately.An exhaust shop will do it in 5 minutes.
I got my header,hi flow cat,muffler fitted and o2 sensor extended for $180 at my local exhaust shop.he is a bit cheaper but it's just bolts and welding,easy as for them.
is it a 1 wire or 4 wire type?Quote:
Originally Posted by B147ch
make sure you use the right kind of wires or you may end up getting ur engine light coming on
hey beeza, for your twinloop & free flow exhaust, do u lose much backpressure?
btw rear muddies are on the sedan... got some bling y0! hahaha
ok, so i got my DC sports headers fitted,
would it be a good idea to take the car to toda for some tuning?
considering the fact that it was tuned when i got the vtec cont. installed w/ exhaust?????
all good man.. just extended the wire to the bottom so reading all 4.. w00t..Quote:
Originally Posted by [ricer]
You lose what's needed...I know Honda's like back pressure,so ya gotta get the right size piping and Header/muffler/hi-flow cat combo.What's your engine? and future plans?Quote:
Originally Posted by dahon
Great to hear about the mudflaps :thumbsup: :D
hmmm...Quote:
Originally Posted by beeza
mines set up 2.25 cat back.. need a higher flowing cat w/ bigger inlet/outlet.
do you think i'm losing some potential power due to the fact that i put these new headers on???
Ok,a few questions:Quote:
Originally Posted by B147ch
What's a Vtec cont.?
What the outlet size on the headers?
What is the rest of the exhaust setup?
apexi vtec & air flow controller.
outlet size is 2.25inch.. (need bush to fit to cat via flanges)
from cat back is 2.25 inches with hot dog resonator.
the guy said i need a higher flowing cat cos the one i got on now wasnt done "properly".
2.25" is the right size cat.You should match the cat size to the piping size.There's no way you would have lost power going from stock headers to aftermarket ones.I don't know about the controller,it sounds like it would be a good device for tuning but I wouldn't touch it after a tune.A tune is always good.Sounds like the cat needs to be welded or something.Is the cat ok or does it need changing?
well for me i just want stock piping with an exhaust to make it sound a little better. my engines a sohc vtec. so say a 2 1/4" outlet.
ive been getting mixed responses saying ill lose some backpressure etc, but considering my cat & headers would be stock it should still be alright aye.
Do U mean U just the muffler? if so I would go a 2",they can put a 3" tip on it for looks.
ahh kz sweet, cheers man :D
why just 2"?
2" twinloop? sounds good yeah?
time to save up agen.. hehehe
Your stock exhaust is 1 3/4"ish so you don't want to go bigger and mess up the flow.The twin loop is great,a really nice note with a good set up.Why don't yo want to do the header/piping?