awesome man
keep us updated
and get us some pretty graphs
just use a good quality camera, lawlll
Printable View
awesome man
keep us updated
and get us some pretty graphs
just use a good quality camera, lawlll
heres just a quick screenshot i did (shows the car at idle):
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...nshotLarge.jpg
man your a legend for having the balls to do this project :D
What did you use to pull the AF ratios? the OBD2 port?
Innovative motorsports LC-1 wideband a/f gauge/data logger...Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
its a completely separate wideband o2 sensor which i calibrated before the run :)
now for the good news hehe did a trial run with the J32A3 throttle body and 3" intake this morning, i didnot port out the manifold so it was only running thru 62mm stock opening. I will be using this dyno as my baseline for the build.
So here is the printout (temp was 16degrees):
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...ne-1Medium.jpg
and here is my A/F log for a run:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...yno-AF-log.jpg
Do you stick it up the exhaust or did you plumb it through a port in the toda test pipe?
its welded in the TODA test pipe just before my cat converter... pretty much directly opposite the stock o2 sensor :)Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
and yes i know its a little rich lol but thats good :) because once i get all that extra air smashing thru there, the ratio should lean out to more around the 13 mark :thumbsup:
Hang on..is that dyno from your normal motor plus the new intake and bigger Throttle Body?? or have you installed the new K20z head and thats the results?
Im not sure what im seeing?
That a different dyno from the original dyno that you and i used that was showing 133kw? Bit hard to draw comparisons in that case.
Either way its looking mighty impressive.
Good idea to list all the mods for this run, seeing that this will be your baseline.
lol its my normal motor with the J32A3 TB and custom intake (plus the comptech exhaust)... i wanted my baseline on a dyno dynamics dyno, as the mainline one seems to read lower than every other dyno ive seen...Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntzu
lol this is the dyno you got 86kws on lol :thumbsup:
that dyno sheet is a little weird (dont know what happened there lol) i have another overlay printout, showing like 3 or 4 different runs i did this morning... ill try scan it in later tonight aswell...
-J32A3 throttle bodyQuote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
-RBC intake manifold (stock 62mm inlet)
-P2R thermal gasket
-Comptech exhaust
-TODA racing headers
-hiflow metal cat
-custom 3" CAI
:D
and yes, i did not have my P2R spacer in (it still needs to be modded to fit the J32A3 TB)
ok heres the overlay:
BLUE line = WOT to redline, then back off, then repeated
GREEN line = Normal power run (i think i got 142kws on that one)
PINK line = Max power run (using as my baseline)
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...rlayMedium.jpg
A/F statistics for 3 runs on the dyno... this takes into account idle/WOT/injector cutoff (hence max 22a/f)
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...3/untitled.jpg
Its all good. Nice figures for those mods, but with respect i dont trust that dyno. thats why I went to the one you suggested. As you said i got 86kw on that one and 118 later on at the other one.
Why did you swap dynos mid mods?
this is actually the dyno i used for my very first run... so the mainline one was actually the one i swapped to "mid mods"... and as i said before, that mainline one reads low... i know plenty of guys who get lower than usual figures on mainline...Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntzu
i trust that dyno... its been very consistant for me (and others)... lol its just a shame ur VSA was on when u did ur run... you mightve got higher than 118kw...
the majority of people seem to use dyno dynamics, so by me using that for all my mods, its a little better for comparison...
(and yes i know you cant compare different dynos done on different days - but using the same brand and program is better than nothing)
Ok. That fair enough.
Im just trying to gauge the improvement of the TB. And your last dyno was 133kw and the same the mainline where i got 118kw. ( i got 86kw at the dyno dynamics place you got 146kw)
So theres no baseline for the TB. But thats fair enough its not worth doing a dyno for every little mod.
Now you have a firm baseline on the Dyno Dynamics and now you can get stuck into the serious head work.
it will be exciting to see what you get next!
Let me know if you are going to pulfords again ( im only 3kms from their shop). Id love to see the next dyno run.
cheers
Both of you need to stick to the same dyno so that you two have semi-comparable numbers. LOL
so which dyno are you guys sticking with?
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
lol dyno dynamics :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Euro08Jaz
hey im curious.. whats the blue line represent ?
to gauge the improvement from the throttle body, id have to go get a dyno, then drain my coolant, then remove my manifold, then port it out to 66mm then replace it, then refill with coolant, then fit throttle body and new EVAP lines, then let it learn the new TB for a few days, then go dyno again... i saw that as alot of effort and wasted money (around $160) just to see maybe a 1-2kw gain... and even that may not show up, as dynos done one week can vary 2-5kws (or more) the next week... hey, ive done three dyno in the space of 5mins, and even they are 1-3kws apart...Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntzu
that is why i didnt do baseline for the TB... i just want a starting point so i can gauge what difference the K20Z head makes...
and also i needed to get a dyno A/F log to compare with :D
im guessing your talking about the blue line in the last dyno sheet? if so, that is my kw output at the wheels... except instead of starting at 2000rpm and revving all the way to redline... it was started around 5000rpm, hit rev limit, then backed off, then WOT to rev limit again... and so on...Quote:
Originally Posted by hooyn
Did the ECU eventually relearn the idle of the J32 TB without needing the HDS? or is it still idling at 1100rpm?
warm idle was sitting around 900rpm lolQuote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
ive swapped back to the stock TB for the next fews days... stalled itself first two times i started it with the stock TB lol my ecu must be going "f*ck! make up your mind!" lol
build starts on monday morning :) so first pics will be up monday night... :thumbsup:
LATEST UPDATE AND PICS~!
ok so on the J32A3 engine, the MAP sensor plugs into the TB and not the IM like on the K24A3... so you need to block the hole in the TB... weld/plug it up you say? lol well maybe, but on closer inspection, the K23A3 TB has three connections (besides the inlet)... it has: coolant in, coolant out, and EVAP vacuum... the J32A3 however, only has two! coolant in and out (these can be removed :) youll notice in my previous pics thats exactly what i did)... so for the EVAP line, simple, drill and tap into the MAP sensor hole, and hey presto! you have both problems fixed :thumbsup:
MAP sensor hole drilled out to 11.8mm and tapped 1/4 BSP thread:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...2298Medium.jpg
Right Angled 8mm EVAP line connection:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...2299Medium.jpg
Nice nice. Lateral thinking ftw!
ok... so my car is now at the workshop... parts all ready to go, intake manifold, tb, engine cover, etc all removed...
will recommence work on it tomorrow morning after ive gone via honda to get some tools :D
Excellent news. So the heads about to go on.
this is officially the most important thread on Ozhonda - Euro CL9
Top stuff!
PIIIIIIIIIIICCCCCCCSSSSSSSS!!!!!
Manifold taken off - starting to remove cam chain cover:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...show3Large.jpg
All jacked up - crank pulley and chain cover removed:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...show2Large.jpg
Cylinder head off!
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...show1Large.jpg
The block after we cleaned the Pistons and sleeves:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...F2323Large.jpg
Mmm so damn sexy! you should see them go up and down, its better than sex!
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...F2325Large.jpg
Yes i have some cool videos aswell, theyll be posted up with the finished product :thumbsup:
sweet asss!!!
Damn the pistons and cylinder area very clean.
lol yeah my mate is very particular about doing everything right! everything is going smoothly so far... took us forever to get the VTC actuator off the camshaft (im only using 25degree on the K20 cams)... but apart from that, all good :thumbsup: touch wood!Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronng
i have in my possesion a VTEC testing aparatus, so tomorrow we will be bolting on the cams, actuating to 25degree advance, and engaging VTEC, then hand cranking the engine to check piston to valve clearance :)
this is exciting.......................
nearly finished! hehehe
got the whole block and head back together :) just got a few things to re-connect tomorrow, and then itll be towed back to my house tomorrow morning... (still awaiting K20 water outlet :()
here are some more pics :D
Timing chain back on:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...F2344Large.jpg
Valve clearance adjustments (to K20Z1 spec):
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...F2349Large.jpg
A nice shot of my baby girl:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...F2357Large.jpg
How i left her tonight:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...F2374Large.jpg
Droooools.........
(Bucket)
timing chain?
plz explain, lol
ohhh i cant wait this is realllyyyyyyyy excitingggggggggg hehehehhehehee :D :D :D trade me ur car pls hehe
lol K-series use timing chain instead of timing belt... dont know why... more friction equals less power :( but i suppose they last longer!Quote:
Originally Posted by krogoth
and yes, i replaced with a brand new one :)
i just hope i make a sh*t load of power! lol all this effort and money! it better be fast! lolQuote:
Originally Posted by felixd
get with times Wazzzomm... the K series doesnt use ur nublet of a D17z motor belt! LOLz hahhaaQuote:
Originally Posted by krogoth
dude how much have you spent all up? Can't wait to see some dynos!
lol on engine/performance alone? or on the car fullstop?Quote:
Originally Posted by johnprocter
after the build is finished... ill work out approx costing... my guess, maybe around $10k on the engine :o
yeah i mean on teh engine/performance for this build! really 10k shitt well i reckon it'll be worth while if you get some fatt gains :)
hahaha damn your quick on the reply! lolQuote:
Originally Posted by johnprocter
yeah, i mean, i know theres gonna be so many people saying i wasted my money and shouldve done this shouldve brought that blah blah blah... but when it comes down to it, ill have a one of a kind, something no one else has, the only euro like it in australia... and thats what will make me happy :)
yeah true haha i was thinking about that today like someone said it'd cost them 15grand to turbo their euro all up and people were saying blahblahblah just buy an evo/wrx whatever.. but everyone has an evo/wrx no one would expect the b000sst from a euro :P and you'd be the only person in the whole of australia with a turbo'd euro ^_^
lol so true... and interior of wrx/evo :thumbdwn:Quote:
Originally Posted by johnprocter
euro is definately something special... and with the extra power... will beat anything in its class/catagory :thumbsup:
hehehe
so true, id rather hav a frank euro over an evo/wrx anyday.
i mean suxs to buy a rally car that'll never hit the dirt
compared to a nice classy euro which is completly functional and would still kick a fair bit of ass.
Its subjective and to say one thing is better and the other sucks is a pointless position to take. I have owned an 03 STi with 200kw atw are you saying that it sucks to own such a car? Have you owned one? The only thing that sucks about owning one is the ridiculous stereotypes attached to it and the retards who target, want to vandalise it and say things like you have just said. :wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by Euro08Jaz
it sux cause they should have stuck with the 22B style.
obviously they are amazing cars to drive.Quote:
Originally Posted by vte18c
it is subjective, and i did own a stock wrx and could not afford the insurance, the point im making is sometimes these cars dont see there full potential. dont take my comment personally i admit it was not very concise
girls stop your bickering! point i was trying to make - everybody has fast WRXs... not many people have fast euros... :p
andway, so heres the lastest update! still waiting for my water outlet, so shes all finished for now, ill be fitting that and making up new lines/hoses once it arrives... until then, a few more pics :)
Lurking in the workshop!
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...rkingLarge.jpg
On her way back to my place:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...-backLarge.jpg
so were just waiting on water outlet?
BOO HOO justin!! =P
lol yep... then she'll be ready for dyno's! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Euro08Jaz
Kick ass! cant wait for you to ''fire it up'' OCC style.
Just on your front bar.. when you refit it, not sure if you have done it before.. but when I took mine off for resonator removal, it put it back on but noticed the 'hooks' had sagged slightly from the removal, allowing a slight gap under the head lights. Sucks.. now I have to take it off again, just thought id share.
lol im gonna video the first start up :)Quote:
Originally Posted by vte18c
thanks buddy!
yeah im gonna bend the hooks back up a lil... hope fully will sit level :thumbsup:
far out
3 pages back is too far back, lol
updatezzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Far out this is like waiting for jtune updates! Finish already!
Kudos for having the balls to do this. You crazy mother - $10k on the engine..... lol
Such an impressive/inspiring build, kudos :D
What are you planning to tune it with? (sorry if I missed it)
Quote:
Originally Posted by krogoth
lol tell me about it!Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
its kinda good tho cause its giving me time to do all my wiring and re-do my interior lighting aswell...
but damn i just want the part to arrive!
lol stock ecu FTW :thumbsup: lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Chris_F
lol all that effort and all that money and your not going to tune it?Quote:
Originally Posted by EUR003act
With extensive modifications like this a good tune is where you get most of your gains isn't it? *scratches head*
lol yep... but im not paying another $4000-$5000 for ecu / harness / tuning for another 5-10kw... lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Chris_F
It'd be a lot more than 5-10 kw. On a euro with just intake header exhaust gains are more like 10-15kw at the wheels (with only a piggy back ecu that can't even control VTC). So with your mods the gains would be even greater and with a stand alone ecu even greater again.Quote:
Originally Posted by EUR003act
You've spent roughly 10k on the engine. With your current mods you're reading about 140-145kw on the dyno your using. By changing the head you might bring that to 145-155kw. I just don't see how the stock ecu is going to cope with the change in cam profiles. The car is likely to run pretty rough (especially at VTEC engagement) and your definitely not going to get the most out of all the mods you've made.
As a point of reference I've seen a few DC5R's with Intake, header, exhaust go from about 120-125kw atw to 140kw atw when tuned with a standalone, fully tuneable ecu.
I'd say with a good ecu you would have been making over 155kw before the head swap. After the head swap with no ecu tuning I'm honestly doubtful it'll be much higher than that.
This is the same logic I've used for my car... I've done I/H/E/Cat lightweight flywheel/clutch and won't be doing any more performance mods untill I can afford a decent ecu to tune it. I know there's a lot more power to be made with the mods I already have with a decent tune. I've always thought ECU tuning was the most critical part of the package when it comes to making power. It just seams odd to me that you've got so many really nice parts but won't be truley taking advantage of them?
What do some of the more experienced guys think about this?
How about the traders that specialise in tuning, what's your honest opinion?
I agree with what Chris is saying but then I come from a turbo background where tuning is more important.. well higher gains from it anyway. I guess when your talking about gains of only 10-15kw from tuning, people aren't as keen to fork out for it.. For the OP maybe it's something you can look at as the next step when your looking to spend more money.
I wanted to ask as a side note, whats the capability of the standard ECU to be flash tuned with these mods?
You're right, there's less gains to be had when tuning NA, but there's also a lot less gains when it comes to boltons. There's just less power overall. But percentage wise ECU still offers the biggest gains on a well modified NA car (as far as I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by vte18c
I just hope there's an ecu planned for this car in the future :)
would emanage ultimate running piggyback be more suitable in his case?
I was under the impression there was no proper tuning option for the Euro.
that the current ecu tuning options:
1. Kill off VSA Aircon Trip etc
2. Get unlearned by the master factory ECU.
Im hoping im wrong with this assessment.
I have the Jtune mild flash with a 5000 rpm vtec and a 98 ron map and im hoping ill get decent gains with more bolts ons. Certianly my car does seem to have responded well to I/H/E/Cat at this stage. Im hoping RBC, heatshield gasket and maybe pulleys will push it along.
But it will be very interesting to see what justin gets with this groundbreaking and awesome mod! He can always tun later if its a cost effective and reliable method.
It would definitely help. You can get an emanage ultimate installed and tuned for around $1500-$2000Quote:
Originally Posted by Crapdaz
Piggybacks aren't as flexible or as precise as many of the stand alone ecu's and are generally for cars with more basic bolt-on mods. I'm not sure how it would handle a new head/cams but it's something worth looking into.
Not entirely true. There are two definite standalone ecu options that I know of:Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntzu
Efi Euro1 with drive-by-wire module. AKmotorworks is a trader that deals/tunes EFi ecu's. There used on a lot of race cars and have some great high-end features. For this ecu you'd be looking at $3000-3500 fitted and tuned. You also won't lose any capabilities like VSA, dash, aircon.
Motec M400 with optional drive-by-wire and VTC compatability. Most tuners should be able to work with Motec and it's one of the best ecu's on the market (extremely precise and a whole bunch of features). This one will set you back about $5000 installed and tuned.
Piggyback wise there is another two:
Emanage ultimate: forum member ALN has this ecu and has experienced no problems with the factory ECU relearning. This is a step above a VAFC or standard emanage and has somehow managed to get around the relearning. Has the capability to change VTEC point and you can buy a greddy V-manage computer to play with the VTC (works in conjunction with the ultimate). This one is about $1500 installed and tuned.
Haltech interceptor: I've emailed the guys at haltech and they have confirmed that this works on a euro and have installed one on a euro in the past. They said gains were 12-15kw atw on a fairly stock car. Unlike the emanage ultimate you can't change vtec point, but it's just as good as the ultimate in every other respect. Once again you should be able to get this one installed and tuned for $1500-$2000.
Ecu's are something I've been looking into for the past couple of years, and so far the Efi is the most desirable in terms of features vs. cost. Still I can't bring myself to spend $3000 and I'm waiting for either a second hand EFi or a new product to come onto the market at a more reasonable price.
So yea, there's definitely a number of options out there. I'm not sure why more of the euro/TSX guys haven't gone ahead and used some of these.
i got quoted for about $1300 for tuned and sourced it myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_F
But yeh sounds about right, that piggybacks arent as good as standalone ecus but works.
After I've finished doing my mods I'm going to get a VAFC2 (& Tune) as it's compatible with both iVTEC and VTC.
Damn, that's a good price!Quote:
Originally Posted by Crapdaz
EUR003act, now there's no reason you can't spend 1300 and get the thing tuned given the outlay on parts so far! :D:thumbsup:
I thought the factory ecu is able to relearn with the VAFC2 (basically wiping the tune)Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfoo
Haltech might be good for me as Ive already got a 5000rpm vtec point...hmmm
^ awesome idea. I never thought of the flash/piggyback combination. Chances are you'll be able to achieve a more agressive tune with the flashed ecu.
VAFC2 doesn't allow you to alter ignition timing and control the VTC.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfoo
i guess its easy to assume that its not worth the money to tune an NA car compared to a turbo, 15kw to 5000,
i dont understand much about ecu tuning but do you need a stand alone unit? couldn't the results be achieved by tuning a stock ecu?
You can't tune a stock ECU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euro08Jaz
You're never going to make as much power NA but that doesn't mean it's not worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euro08Jaz
10-15kw can be gained from $1300 with the haltech or greddy piggy back ecu. There limitation is that they're really only suitable for mild modifications.
If your spending the full $5000 for the motec m400 (or $3000 for the efi) you can really go to town on the engine. Agressive cams, stroked/destroked/bored engine, Supercharger, turbocharger basically whatever you like.
With the right mods a naturally aspirated k24 can make in excess of 165-175kw atw, you'll just need to spend upwards of $3000 on a decent ecu to get it there (after you've done all of the engine work).
just quickly whilst were on the topic of ecu's say i was after the comptech sc kit how would i be able to tune my ecu to run with that including header and exhaust modifications? i understand no reflash is available for 07 euro and i dont think an 06 tsx ecu would be interchangeable with the euro.
i havent had a chance to read all your replies properly... i will when i have some spare time... :) but until i see a euro with an aftermarket ecu that still has full functioning dash, air con, and cruise control... im not going aftermarket... i didnt buy a luxury car with all those features for nothing...
as for piggy back ecus... the master ecu will relearn them, and they cant adjust things like a/f ratio in open loop mode and VTC... (where all my power would be...)
yes i know id get more power with a tuned ecu... but until there is a viable option out there for the euro, im not gonna go down that road...
in saying that, the only thing i can see doing what i want would be piggy back K20 ecu running K-pro... but that gets expensive and still has alot of experimenting to be done.... before people start saying "you cant do this" "you should do this" i think id like to wait and see what this build gets me... this is all unwalked ground in the world of euros... and from what ive seen of the stock ecu so far, damn theyre good! :thumbsup:
true at the end of the days you've been getting mad results with the stock ecu, im sure something will eventually come out no point losing features that we paid for.
Yeah exactly, and the reason why I was advised against piggybacks such as the Haltech interceptor on late model ECU's is due to their intelligent learning capabilities. Your basically cutting the standard ECU out of certain controls or signal bending.. id rather go a flash tune or complete ECU replacement if you can be assed.
I had haltech interceptor on my 03 sti, it took 4 hours to tune and I was told a flash tune would have netted better results. Not to say it still wasn't good.. it's just that the late model factory ECU's are pretty smart.
See how you go mate.
havent had an update in ages... so here ya go :)
well, still waiting for the water outlet to arrive, but i re-did all the LEDs in my centre console (two had died!), and also started adding mood lighting...
i have also tidied up some of my old sensor wiring, and run new looms for future upgrades :thumbsup:
photos!
the mess im currently sorting out lol:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...2406Medium.jpg
and my new looms (mine are ALL the black ones!):
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...F2408Large.jpg
Wow mate. You're a seriously dedicated Euro modder. Hats off to you! :thumbsup:
cheers buddy :) its always good to hear others thoughts on what im doing... :thumbsup: thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by sodaz