Locally made headers vs. Branded headers

Now now this may be a stupid noobish question, but that's beside the point. Can somebody please explain to me if and why are locally made headers from your exhaust shop are a waste of time and money,

AND

Would it be better to invest my money on imported goods such as buddyclub etc..

Would i be missing out on potential kw? increase air flow etc.., and if someone with experience of both goods give me there personal opinion on both, like for example if they've tried both on thier car, and noted obvious differences.

Thanks,,
Khaled

bummbbbbb

Bigger brands normally do alot of R&D to create good headers where as most local places just make the headers to make them if that makes sense, Bigger brands = equal length, better welds, made for power.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...u/DSC04941.jpg
Locally made in Australia , JDMyard K swap header
Equal tuned length 4-2-1 header , hand made collectors , fully tig welded
Proven 11.82 sec down the 1/4 mile on my EGK24A

if your going to go local, look into the quality of the product and any previous proven performance, then you have to compare the prices.
also not many local exhaust shops will stock honda exhaust manifolds, mainly fords n holdens. so you may have to goto a shop like JDM yard to get one.

Have a look at the US market for headers. Brands like SMSP, SSR, ASP are a few good ones

There are very few Australian header makers out there, rather exhaust shops that are able to make a good looking header, but very few people that work in exhaust shops arnt that clued up on the science in headers, manifolds or exhaust systems in general, they just throw something together that looks right or similar to something else, they can get around this by testing many headers, but the number of people here just dont allow for the r&d like previously suggested, thats why the states have the rep and experience they do, as do Japan but they are particular in design and testing, stemming from motorsport but i wouldnt apply that tag to all Japenese headers, but some are very good at what they do, some have made that many that they got there performance wise in the end.

The copied headers out of the states are just copies of proven headers like TODA, SMSP, HYTEC, RMF, SSR to name a few.

Unless your 100% in the ability and experience of the person making your header then id suggest spending your money on a copied proven product if on a budget, or get a real TODA, HYTEC, SMSP, DTR/SSR header if after the most from your set-up.

Research and look for examples of headers on engines close to your build to guide you, but it doesnt stop there either, your exhaust system affects your performance aswell.

Good Luck. :thumbsup:

Alot of local shops can produce some rather good designs in terms of headers, I've always bought my exhaust from OZ shops made in house, never been disappointed :D

Are they good looking ones, or ones that back to back on a dyno will out perform the ones mentioned?

Maybe some pics, info, dyno figures and where built would help, all the ones mentioned you can find hundereds on posts on different combo's and dyno proven results/differences.

dynos are only a tool, and the same variables arent going to be there the same time usually

dont go by dyno figures alone as most are misleading... alot of ppl will put additives in their fuel (to boost octane), etc which is not a good way to make judgement as it's not what I would call 'day by day' use

on a stock Honda (B16/18) engine not much will better the factory jdm item, which is why it's still retained a good value today

Dynos are only a tuning tool, but i did mention back to back tests.

The JDM 4-1 is a good header as you say, but i wouldnt say best performing header on a stock engine.

Not trying to argue here, rather inform Hectik abit, to spend his money wisely and do research opposed to trusting some guy who says, i can make a header.

agree with alot of whats been sed so far....

any aus exhaust shop knock-up header can vary in quality/performance greatly, depending on the knowledge/skill of the maker as well as materials used.

larger aftermarket parts manufacturers will make a science of it, ensuring that their header pipes are equal length/perfectly suited for the application. However, once again the quality/performance can differ, tho even xforce headers will have a semi-decent quality/performance, tho not as precisely (and expensively) made as jdm parts.

In terms of performance, the more defining question is whether or not ecu settings will be adjusted post-install. On a stock ecu setting, the jdm 4-1's perform almost as well as the jdm header pipes (toda, spoon etc). Once the ecu has been properly tuned to adapt to the new parts, thats where the true potential of expensive high quality jdm/usdm headers will show...

Often you'll find off-the-shelf high-quality headers will "fit" alot tighter than custom/xforce headers as the tolerancing will be much much tighter. You often see this in the bolt holes that connect the header pipe to the block. Xforce use larger holes to compensate for a non-exact fit. Toda/Spoon/Maximworks/etc will have precisely machined holes for an exact fit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by roar

Often you'll find off-the-shelf high-quality headers will "fit" alot tighter than custom/xforce headers as the tolerancing will be much much tighter. You often see this in the bolt holes that connect the header pipe to the block. Xforce use larger holes to compensate for a non-exact fit. Toda/Spoon/Maximworks/etc will have precisely machined holes for an exact fit.

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Just to add my 2c worth, having tighter fit bolt holes allows for much better port alignment compared to a header that has alot of free play with the flange.

Imagine if I currently have a cat-back exhaust system, and say a injen CAI,
If i was to say, purchase xforce headers or buddyclub, toda so on, now i don't mean to be judgmental in anyway whatsoever but what would the difference be if there just pipes at the end of the day, both are better then stock OEM, so wouldn't performance gain between the two - 'xforce' and 'toda' be minimal?

Please don't flame, just trying to learn here..

thnks
khaled

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EG5

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...u/DSC04941.jpg
Locally made in Australia , JDMyard K swap header
Equal tuned length 4-2-1 header , hand made collectors , fully tig welded
Proven 11.82 sec down the 1/4 mile on my EGK24A

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This is a copy of the Rage header, like to see back to back tests

as would i,

could sum1 please answer my question? ^^ about the differences in headers

cheers boys+girls

Quote:

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Originally Posted by B20NA

This is a copy of the Rage header, like to see back to back tests

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Show me Rage header pics and specs for K swap application.
I havent seen Rage K swap header and I havent seen alot of people doin the the 4 - 2 -1 collector part so short like my header.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hectik_7

Imagine if I currently have a cat-back exhaust system, and say a injen CAI,
If i was to say, purchase xforce headers or buddyclub, toda so on, now i don't mean to be judgmental in anyway whatsoever but what would the difference be if there just pipes at the end of the day, both are better then stock OEM, so wouldn't performance gain between the two - 'xforce' and 'toda' be minimal?

Please don't flame, just trying to learn here..

thnks
khaled

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there is a difference between two brands. Not only in quality but the design in the Toda headers make it very efficient. Im saying that, the Tri-Y design headers from places like the US also make very good power. Do more research and you'll learn alot.

Try sites like honda-tech.com and use the search function

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hectik_7

Imagine if I currently have a cat-back exhaust system, and say a injen CAI,
If i was to say, purchase xforce headers or buddyclub, toda so on, now i don't mean to be judgmental in anyway whatsoever but what would the difference be if there just pipes at the end of the day, both are better then stock OEM, so wouldn't performance gain between the two - 'xforce' and 'toda' be minimal?

Please don't flame, just trying to learn here..

thnks
khaled

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1st, you really don't have to sign off with your name..LOL.

2nd, I'd say this - If you have no intention to go further at all, then yes, Xforce will be bang for buck. But going no further is not likely hey? ;-)
The tuned header (e.g. Toda) would then come into its own when you start doing more.

So, what do you want to do? to get an xforce now because its cheap could be false economy - down the road, as your build your car, you realise you need something that will match the mods alot better.

Ok,

By locally produced headers, do you mean pacemaker, redback, lukey, genieSS, etc?

If you are, I highly suggest you stay away from that shit. I managed to be in an exhaust fitting/mechanical shop for a week (the welder there was ex autotech welder - apparently a reputable shop, welding/manifold science wise? ROFL.)

For started upon inspecting my pacemaker headers which came with my car, not to mention the STUPIDLY small piping on the primary and secondaries, there is a abundant lip inside the port which is closest to the exhaust port right up after the flange, this in itself will cost you alot of power once you get the motor built right. The gas flowing out of the port will hit this lip, cause turbulance and disturb that optimum flow you want.

My previous nissan motor mass produced pacemaker headers had the SAME flaw. It's not something they design into it, it's cheap rushing process of manufacture. It's easier to slide the tube into the flange port hole and tack it than it is to align it 100% around the port hole, see what I'm getting at? BULLSHIT design.

In all my honest, my general observation is Australian mass produced headers from above manufacturers are a bunch of shit gimmicks that young p platers (I'm a p plater so don't try flame, but alot of them have NFI - eg; sick pod bro) who just bought there car pay for. Some might give a slight gain, but yes, a slight gain. It really depends what you want. I still believe standard honda headers flow quite well.

Quote:

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If i was to say, purchase xforce headers or buddyclub, toda so on, now i don't mean to be judgmental in anyway whatsoever but what would the difference be if there just pipes at the end of the day,

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Yes, they are just pipes at the end of the day but I don't see it that way, the exhaust manifold is one of the most important tools on the motor. It needs to be designed as best it can. So just pipes at the end of the day mentality is what the pacemaker people might think, but not those after quality stuff. For example,

If your "pipes" are welded together with slag inside the piping, shit fit, lips inside where the piping is joined, press bent tubing, I guarantee you that you will be bottlenecking your motor.

The header should be designed in a way that the gases flow straight out from the motor without any interference from anything unless it's going from primary to secondary (or to collector). There is a big issue with cheap headers, for some reason they make the primary smaller in diameter than the port. This should be slightly larger than the exhaust port which allows for gasses to smoothly flow into the primary and ALSO helps gases be "pulled" from the cylinder due to high pressure -> low pressure (primary tube) area. We all know gas flows from high pressure to low. This will then flow down gently through mandrel bends into the secondary which should be stepped to prevent gas reversion. and again smoothly to the collector which should be to a point and have a decent length reverse megaphone on the end to increase velocity of the gasses.

Of course that is a VERY basic insight of a well designed header, there is alot more involved such as camshaft and intake designs, port throat velocity, making the primary's straight for as long as possible as they exit the head rather than curve straight away (RMF do this in US I beleive), etc.

I know I don't answer some direct questions you have, but if you know what you're doing you can make a set of headers just as good if not better than a set from say toda for example for well below 1k. :).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EG5

Show me Rage header pics and specs for K swap application.
I havent seen Rage K swap header and I havent seen alot of people doin the the 4 - 2 -1 collector part so short like my header.

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just viewed the rage header and your right the 1 collector is larger in the rage than yours

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Originally Posted by B20NA

just viewed the rage header and your right the 1 collector is larger in the rage than yours

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Got any pics ? specs of it ?

have pic's just dont know how to paste it up

http://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?i...3064055ol0.jpg

You guys need to understand major tuners in Japan they have all the date and a lot of testing to create a product therefore the price are more expensive. They will test it over and over and make sure it works and also compare figures......which ever give you better performance and reliabilities, they will use that design....which local exhaust shop they may have the knowledge but will they invest as much time and put it on the engine and test whats the output on the fly...or on the wheel? I dun think so.......Toda, Spoon, Buddyclub, Mugen etc...they have race car and dyno engine setup to collect data and they do a lot of testing b4 put the product in the market.....For me I will prefer to pay top dollar for best item.....such as Mugen....as I am a mugen whore.....lol
Like e240 mention....you can settle with x-force header but if down the track you may need better item if you build your engine further.....its just a waste of time to buy and sell again.....you lost $$ by selling ur part 2nd hand and labour......I will prefer to save up and pay top $$ for best part and try to do it once....but thats only me....

About make quality.....try to look into some major JDM or US top quality parts.....the welding looks perfect...but not only from outside......inside as well.......local and custom made item....its all depends.....it may look good outside...but inside may be badly welded and may affect how efficient the header work.

As most of you know NA car is not like turbo cars......you may only gain a few kw by putting a new part in your car....if you say X-force and buddy club header only a few kw different...then what can you do the gain that few kw back......you use $$ to buy power to NA cars....unlike turbo by doing ECU tuning without any further mods...you may gain 20 kw easily......so every single kw counts for me......

I had driven

Stock AUDM DC5R
modded AUDM DC5R
JDM DC5R

with
AUDM Header with Spoon N1 Catback
AUDM Header with Mugen Twinloop
Xforce header with Spoon N1 Catback
Mugen Header with both Mugen Twinloop and Spoon N1 Catback
Toda Header, with Toda Catback
Spoon Header with Mugen Twinloop
Spoon Header with Mugen N1 Exhaust

and I can tell you, I feel minimal difference between X-force Header and Stock AUDM Header.....Toda and Mugen Header have the best gain in performance......and spoon Header with Mugen exhausts have good balance....so that tell you whats the better choice.....

But its just personal experience......I maybe wrong.....at the end of the day you can make your own judgement.......Just my 2 cent....hope it helps.....

Just a Quick little question id like to add:
Lets say you changed the internals (piston/cams/rods/ect) would you be better off with a custom designed* header than lets say a 'tuner' header?

*Designed and not 'made' for a reason. Lets say you did some testing and calculations aswell rather than 'lets do a 4-2-1 with nice looking bends' :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by B20NA

have pic's just dont know how to paste it up

http://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?i...3064055ol0.jpg

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Completely different to mine

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chernoby1

Just a Quick little question id like to add:
Lets say you changed the internals (piston/cams/rods/ect) would you be better off with a custom designed* header than lets say a 'tuner' header?

*Designed and not 'made' for a reason. Lets say you did some testing and calculations aswell rather than 'lets do a 4-2-1 with nice looking bends' :P

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The header should always be designed last. Bottom end followed by the head, followed by the intake which depends on cam and header which evolves on the whole setup.

they look like the cheapo ones from TDM. They work great as well!

barefootbonzai is right, it was retarded of you to post in the first place without FACTS, which seems to be quite common here.

so keep it on topic or this will be closed.

In my opinion about headers , its all depending on how much budget you wanna blow.
You can spend anywhere from $400 for a start ( x force header ) up to $2k or so for US made SMSP , Hytech , ANR , DTR/SSR.